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Author
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Comment
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Helen
Registered User
(7/28/02 10:43:14 am)
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The Goblin Market...
Dear All:
I'm starting work on the idea of the Goblin Market and what it signifies; my theory is that the liminal nature of the market is a metaphor for the transgressive nature of interaction between the fantastic and the mundane. In these stories, always, there is some "unlawful" behavior, and the enactment of strict regulation by what authorities there be to bring matters back into balance. My problem is this; rack my brain though I do, I can't seem to come up with any *markets* before Rossetti. Trips into Faerie as midwives or servants or jongleurs, yes ... markets, no. My theories at this point are that, a) in some point in the recent past, I've hit my head hard enough to lose a significant chunk of memory, or, b) the market is a sign of Victorian commodification resulting from the Industrial Revolution, even of personal interaction. Do you guys have any thoughts on this?
Best,
helen
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/28/02 5:36:17 pm)
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Markets
Helen,
Certainly, the notion of the market really comes to the fore in the Victorian period- especially when you consider the development of the department store later in the century- and the arcades. It's a really interesting question actually, when you think about the way the dept store and the arcade transformed the landscape of the city, especially for women. The city becomes a place where respectable women can go unchaperoned and where they are just as likely to 'quench' a desire as men.
My instinct is that there must be something earlier, especially as the market is shifting in character so radically during this period- but nothing springs to mind readily! I will rack my brain and let you know...
k.
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BlackHolly
Registered User
(7/28/02 9:43:59 pm)
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Re: Markets and Goblins
Helen,
I don't know if this would be particularly helpful, but your post made me think of how many of the faery midwife tales end with the midwife in a market able to see into Faerie out of a single eye. Like Rossetti's Goblin Market, we have the idea of the invisible world and since the midwife usually sees faeries stealing, possibly the idea of a criminal underworld. One could perhaps to extend that to drugs, prostitution, and other licentious behavior can exist beneath the surface of a market.
Holly
Edited by: BlackHolly at: 7/28/02 9:48:38 pm
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(7/28/02 10:22:13 pm)
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markets
Market days go way way back--here in St Andrews is the longest continuous medieval fair day in Scotland. Lammas Day Fair.
Weekly market days are still held in many British towns.
I am (slowly) working on a novel called Goblin Market about the Pre Raphaelite Brotherhood.
Jane
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Midori
Unregistered User
(7/29/02 4:23:23 am)
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markets
Helen,
to second Jane's comments--there is a long history of markets being especially important to the social community--but you find them listed more as "fairs" than markets--though they were certainly both. The "hiring faires" of Britain combined pleasure and commerce--(sort of like the state fairs) and it was a chance for laborers to hire on for a year to a farm (both men and women). Steeleye Span did a great song about this called "Copsheholm Faire" (I may not be spelling that right!) Also, another folk song that lists all who goes to the fairs "Bartholomew's Faire". So the markets are pretty old...but I like Karen's point of view that the Victorians changed them, made them more gentrified so that upper middle class women could go unescorted--I was also thinking by extension of the weird way in which Disneyland became the model of the American Mall--a place that is almost "fantastic" in its theme, with whimiscal "fairyland" stuff everywhere, people in costumes, folk motifs--artifical streets--and yet the whole emphasis is on a sort of fairyland shopping spree. It would interesting to determine whether the transgression was an economic one, (ah, the new villians at Enron and World com--kings of transgression!) or a social one (between the world of the fantastic and human beings.)
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Terri
Registered User
(7/29/02 4:53:57 am)
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Re: markets
Lewis Hyde discusses myths and folklore related to market-places, buying, and selling, in his wonderful, wonderful book The Gift: Imagination and the Erotic Life of Property. It's not a folklore book, but it touches on folklore in Hyde's examination "gift exchange" economies, "market" economies, and the place of the artist in both. It's one of my favorite books ever.
I was planning to do a Folkroots column once upon a time about Goblin Market and the market-place in fantasy (Stardust, etc.), and, er, I'm just never going to get around to it, too busy with other things. So Helen, I'm glad to hear you're tackling this topic, and would love to read whatever you come up with!
Speaking of "hiring fairs," Midori, have you heard the gorgeous song called (I think) The Hiring Fair that Fairport Convention has recorded on their live album?
Edited by: Terri at: 7/29/02 5:02:33 am
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jane yolen
Unregistered User
(7/29/02 12:08:00 pm)
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Yes and I said Yes!
Terri--I was just going to mention the Fairport "Hiring Fair" which I find one of the most sensual songs I know. God, I love it!
Jane
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Midori
Unregistered User
(7/29/02 1:53:29 pm)
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which album?
Terri,
If I heard it, i can't believe I don't remember it! Which album exactly is it on? I went hunting on amazon to see if I could figure it out but no luck.
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Helen
Registered User
(7/29/02 5:35:46 pm)
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A trove of knowledge and inspiration, this board ...
Dear All:
Guys! Thanks, this is all wonderful. Your ideas concerning the nature of the market are wonderful (and the connection of being able to see into Farie with one eye is wonderful -I can definitely think of a few versions where that happens at a fair - joy! antecedents!).
Basically, I see it as being *both* an economic and a social transgression - or, rather, the amalgamation of the two by a society that came to see money as being equivalent to honor, and power, and all that good stuff. Basically, social transgression expressed through economic means - so, all of those instances of mortals buying goods unintended for their hands (Rossetti's"Goblin Market"), stealing them (Neil Gaiman's _Books of Magic_, issue three), cheating others (Jack Vance's _The Green Pearl_), breaking contracts (Gaiman, _Neverwhere_, and also _Stardust_) become newly significant of their transgression against the norms of society, and doubly significant because of their occurence in the liminal state of the market - a place where the norms must be *more* strictly observed, rather than less, so as to maintain the borders between the permissible and the forbidden. Or that's where I'm headed, anyway.
Terri - I'll be giddy on goblin wine to have you look at the finished product (I actually went into some sort of a strange auto-writing daze when I was trying to write up journals for the class that I'm taking on Victorian Lit. this summer, and produced a weird little travelouge of journeys into Faerie by that name, which took the name "Goblin Wine" for itself - seems apt to use it here). I hope that you *do* write that essay - maybe it will inspire Marvels & Tales or Mythosphere or Parabola to try a Market-related issue. It's definitely an idea that needs to be explored in modern fantasy ...
Jane - that sounds absolutely luscious! Between you, Terri, and Elizabeth Hand, I'm kept in a state of constant anticipation for new tales of my favorite period. Soon? (I sound like a kid begging for sweets, or Lizzie begging for fruit, and more shamefully, I know it ... great literature is *definitely* more addictive than anything else I can think of).
Again, thanks!
Best,
Helen
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(7/29/02 11:02:41 pm)
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Not yet
I have been taking about writing this Goblin Market novel for five years now and collected almost fifty thick volumes of research on the Pre Raphs, but have not started it. Not yet.
Jane
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/30/02 8:33:44 pm)
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Big question
How is the market different to the carnival? Is the money element the principal difference?
(Helen, as I'm sure you're no doubt aware, your ideas about the market sound a bit similar to what Eco says about the carnival- it's a liminal place, a place of transgression, which paradoxically reinforces the norm).
Terri,
That book sounds wonderful and very useful to me- ta!
Karen.
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Helen
Registered User
(7/30/02 8:50:56 pm)
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Precisely!
Dear Karen:
I just taught the class today (it went really well, on the whole - thanks, guys!), and, in the course of my frantic 5 am note-taking, came to the conlusion (re: epiphany) that it is *precisely* the commercial aspect that makes the market so significant, both to the Victorians, and to modern readers. Somehow, it just has more ... resonance ... because of the higher stakes (sorry, bad pun). Dickens has the circus in _Hard Times_, and a good number of fairy tale references to boot; but somehow, the circus never moves beyond being entertainment; there is no "moral" judgement at work there. The market, on the other hand, is all about judgement...
Let us examine the nature of Laura’s transgression. Laura knows that to buy the fruits is forbidden to her, because of their dangers, and their unfamiliar source; she says so herself, warning Lizzie, in lines 42-46. Yet she herself, referred to in "curious Laura," and "sweet-toothed Laura," in lines 69 and 115. These traits make her vulnerable; she yields to her temptation.
She resists it at first, in lines 105-106. She attempts to explain her situation, in 115-121, and then, finally, accepts the goblin bargain to trade a lock of her golden hair in line 125. According to the magical Law of Contagnation, which states that any part of a thing is equivalent to the entirety, Laura has given them herself; in exchange, she has received their corruption. It appears, as well, that she knows what she has done; in line 126, she "dropped a tear more rare than pearl," signaling her knowledge of her doom.
The manner of Laura’s rescue from the goblin’s by Lizzie is particularly interesting. She goes to buy fruit for her sister, but offers no more than mortal coin; the goblins receive it, not of their own volition, but when she tosses it at them in line 367. This is not their preferred payment; they wish to gain her company, and her self, but she refuses. Nevertheless, they have accepted payment, which they do not return when she says "If you will not sell me any/ Of your fruits though much and many/ Give me back my silver penny/ I tossed you for a fee" (lines 386-389). The deal has been struck, and sealed with silver; by the ancient rules of fairy, which Rossetti appears to have been fully aware of, and which still operate in full force even in the confines of the market, they must attempt to fulfill their bargain; they "give" her the fruit by attacking her with it, in lines 394-407, and in lines 422-438. But Laura will not accept, and they cannot force her to acquiesce under conditions that she had not agreed to, and finally, in line 439, they return her penny, and storm off, without having gained any advantage over her. She has triumphed by knowing the rules of the market place.
I'm sorry for only puttin line numbers - I'm too tired to type out full quotes. I'm hoping that the story is familiar enough that the exact wording isn't immediately crucial, and I'll try to add them in by editing later. Have a good night, all!
Best,
Helen
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Kerrie
Registered User
(8/2/02 5:56:27 am)
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Introduction...
A little late, but I wanted to give a little introduction to Ms. Holly Black. I met her at this year's Readercon, introducing myself after noticing we went to several of the same panel discussions. Her book _Tithe_ is coming out this October from Simon and Schuster. Glad you could join us, Holly!
Dandelion wishes,
Kerrie
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Gregor9
Registered User
(8/2/02 7:49:01 am)
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Re: which album?
And while we're doing Market music, let's not forget Blondel's delightful "Weaver's Market." Seems to fit perfectly this topic, as it's a song "told" from multiple viewpoints on the way to and at the market.
Greg
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Kate
Unregistered User
(8/2/02 8:54:59 am)
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Faires, etc.
For something I'm working on, I'm looking into the all-night markets (also referred to as fairs) in 17 c. Holland. In addition to much music, alcohol and bidding wars on fish and tulips, women were auctioned as wives. (Girls, I should say.) Was this also an element of the 'faires' you talk about, Midori and Jane?
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Midori
Unregistered User
(8/2/02 11:16:39 am)
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Irish auctions
Kate,
Yes! There is in fact a wonderful Irish song about a farmer who takes his wife to the fair to auction her off--he's grown tired of her and she's a shrew (in his opinion). The auction is somewhat spirited and it is the Blacksmith who wins the bid. But at the end of the song, it becomes clear that the woman and the blacksmith have in fact worked all this out before hand. She doesn't like the farmer any better than he likes her. But in catholic Ireland the time and expense of having a marriage annuled was out of reach for most couples--hence the auction which more often as not, according the social history sources, was a way of dissolving a marriage.
Ireland also had specifically marrying faires--where groups of singles met with the hope of finding someone (combined of course with county fair business buying and selling stock). There are some terrific songs about it..and a very funny series of contemporary jokes about the country girl (the sort to have attended marrying fairs) coming to the U.S. Alas the only one I can remember at the moment is when the girl is on the plane filling out an immigration form she looks at the box marked "sex," thinks a moment, and then writes down "once."
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(8/2/02 10:43:05 pm)
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Hiring fairs
The hiring fairs I know about were specifically for farm workers. There's a marvelous (modern) play called BONDAGERS by a Scottish playwright whose name just now escapes me. It's all about the Scots (bondagers) who hire out at the fairs and what happens to them afterwards.
Jane
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(8/3/02 10:49:25 pm)
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Hiring Fair
Just remembered--the playwright's name--Sue Glover.
Jane
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Karen
Unregistered User
(8/8/02 3:52:15 pm)
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Arcades of desire
Hi Helen,
Sorry to be responding so late- I'm glad the class went well.
A (perhaps irrelevant) piece of trivia which your account of the poem and Midori's and Jane's descriptions of "marriage markets" brought into my head: In their early days, the Paris (shopping) arcades often included brothels. There's a quite a bit about this in Walter Benjamin's Arcades Project (Passagen-Werk). Apparently, there was a Passage du Desir, which led to "a house of ill-repute". Often, the brothels and their workers would pose as millners or glove shops, etc, but those in the know.... It's interesting, I think- how seamlessly this notion of sexual commerce enters the marketplace- you're always buying or selling a little more than meets the eye!
The thing that I find really interesting about Goblin Market is the innumerable ways it has entered the literary marketplace. It's very curious if you look at all the various editions and their illustrations. Housman, D.G. Rossetti, the kids' versions...At one point, it was published in Playboy as a "ribald Victorian classic" with illustrations by Kinuko Craft- special prominence, of course, was given to "kiss me, love me", etc scene. So you have that question of audience- just who is Goblin Market marketed to?
Karen.
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Helen
Registered User
(8/8/02 4:42:33 pm)
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Playboy? Oh, wonderful ...
Dear Karen:
Thanks! Now I must go and have a look through Benjamin - this could be a really good point to illustrate the transition between pre-Victorian innocence (when the commodification of human sexuality was quite present, but kept below the the consciousness of proper society), and the full-blown explosion of that no-longer subconscious knowledge in the newfound accessibility of modernity.
The question of the proper venue for "Goblin Market" was an issue that certainly troubled the Victorians; when the text was submitted to John Ruskin for review, he condemned it as being "full of quaintness and offences." This, no less, from a man who used to pester Kate Greenway incessantly for pictures of unclothed "girlies." In a contemporary review, Mrs. Charles Eliot Norton asked, "Is it a fable - or a mere fairy story - or an allegory against the pleasure of sinful love - or what is it?" Norton eventually concluded that it might serve two audiences seperately - the innocent and the mature - with no harm done. The original publication was rather murky in terms of intended audience - it was put out in a lovely, illustrated "small Christmas book" alongside poems that were obviously intended for an older audience. Rossetti herself, as well as her brothers, used to market the poem with the disclaimer that it was not meant to be profound; a statement that was, judging from the reactions, as unconvincing then as it is now. U.C. Knoepflmacher devotes a good deal of attention to this topic in his wonderful _Ventures Into Childland: Victorians, Fairy Tales, and Femininity_.
I'm thrilled to hear that Kinuko Craft has illustrated "Goblin Market" - I think that her covers for the last few McKillip books have been absolutely sublime - but I'm less thrilled at the thought of the time that I'm going to be spending sorting through vintage pornography trying to locate a copy. I don't suppose that it's been put out on its own, has it?
Plaintively,
Helen
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Rebecca
Unregistered User
(8/10/02 6:24:19 am)
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Re: Playboy? Oh, wonderful...
Actually, at the time that C. Rossetti wrote 'Goblin Market' she was volunteering at a penitentiary for young prostitutes. I believe she did this sporadically for several years. It has been a while since I originally read it, but if you can get your hands on a copy of Jan Marsh's bio of Christina (if you haven't already, that is), simply called Christina Rossetti, A Writer's Life, there is a great chapter on 'Goblin Market' in it that discusses some of the interesting personal background and influences on the poem, including the penitentiary work, which does not seem to be discussed that often in books about Rossetti, and where some of her fairy knowledge came from. Jan Marsh also mentions the Playboy publication, which she says came out in 1965 -- maybe knowing that will at least help narrow that unpleasant search...
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