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Author
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Comment
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Angelclaud
Registered User
(3/17/02 5:58:57 am)
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Should Children Read Fairy Tale?
I am writing a ten page argument paper, arguing whether or not children should read fairy tales. I myself, love fairy tales and do think that children should read fairy tales. I've found couple of books related to the topic, such as The Uses of Enchantment, Grimms' Bad Girls and Bold Boys, Tending the Heart of Virtues, et cetera. However, I am having troubles integrating all those ideas presented in those books. There are simply too many things to write about. Please help !
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JaNell
Registered User
(3/17/02 7:21:10 am)
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Montessori
Last year, my mother-in-law put our toddler in Montessori...
a the first meeting with the school, we found out that not only do they not allow ANY SpecFic at school, they prefer that you not make it available at home, either. Apparently Fairy Tales, Fantasy, SF, and the like undermine the life lessons they teach, or something like that.
Our younger son is in a differant school this year. He's happier,
and at that old school, even the teachers seemed bored and stressed.
Maybe a change of reality is good for people?
I do have moral issues with the Disneyized versions of Fairy Tales out there; I think it is harmful to have a happy ending every time.
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Marsha
Sisolak
Registered User
(3/17/02 9:18:46 am)
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Montessori and fairy tales
I think that particular Montessori school was guided by the owner's
personal biases, or things have really changed since I received
my Montessori certification. Certainly, it's nothing that Montessori
herself espoused.
As far as fairy tales --
I teach kindergarten. I expose my students to a wide variety
of fairy tales, including the new variations. We not only read them, we act them out. My class loves them all, and I believe it's a great boost to their imaginations. Children use imaginative play to make sense of the world around them. Fairy tales give them that much more to think about and incorporate into their world view.
For me, it's all about imagining. I think far too many people mature into adults who have lost that childlike sense of wonder. (Of course, that could also be my excuse, too. <g>)
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/17/02 9:38:54 am)
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children and fairy tales
Hi,
My kids read fairy tales constantly, over and over again. The stories are mostly not the watered down versions (i.e. the wolf eats little red riding hood). But they also love the Disney movies.
My third grader recently brought home a book from school, which has nothing to do with fairy tales - it is a Newberry Award winner, The Bridge to Terabitha. It is an excellent book, but it also deals with poverty, death, children being beaten by parents. Surprisingly, these subjects didn't bother me - it was the fact they make it clear there is no Santa Claus, which made me tell the teacher that he wasn't ready for the book. Sigh. Where should we allow fantasy and where shouldn't we, I wonder?
Oh, look in the archives here for more and be sure to read Touch Magic.
Jess
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Kerrie
Registered User
(3/17/02 11:08:18 am)
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Age appropriate?
One quick question- do you have a certain age group in mind? That might help a bit.
Soft whispers and sugarplum dreams,
Kerrie
Edited by: Kerrie at: 3/17/02 11:08:53 am
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(3/17/02 12:54:39 pm)
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Montessori
My son and daughter in love who read reams of fantasy and science fiction and fairy tales are putting trying to put their child in Montessori and have never heard any such from the teachers.
Jane
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(3/17/02 4:41:23 pm)
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OOPS!
Oops--interesting and lovely Freudian slip--daughter in love. Also daughter-in-law!
Jane
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JaNell
Registered User
(3/17/02 5:07:34 pm)
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Montessori
I'd not heard that Montessori was that way, either...
I was very surprised. Ro didn't do well there as he doesn't learn in a linear fashion, and they were set on him learning only that way.
Anywho, enough OT.
Nice Freudian slip there, Jane.
You must enjoy your daughter-in-law-love very much.
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Angelclaud
Registered User
(3/17/02 5:50:11 pm)
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Re: Montessori
Hiya ! Thanks for all the wonderful respond. I think that I will narrow the topic down to something like should fairy tales be incorporated or integrated into school's curricullum. I've read some periodicals which show how fairy tale can be used to teach math, logic, and law. What do you all think about it?
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Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(3/17/02 6:41:25 pm)
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Re: Montessori
You might want to look into Waldorf school theory and curriculum. (Rudolph Steiner was the founder.) They use quite a bit of fairy tales and oral storytelling as part of their curriculum. That would be on the pro side, of course. Laura Mc
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(3/18/02 3:55:18 am)
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Self Promotion, sorry
You could also (ahem) read my TOUCH MAGIC: Fantasy, Faerie, and Folklore in the Literature of Childhood (August House publishers), especially some of the first chapters.
Jane
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/18/02 6:53:31 am)
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Meanings in the tales
Angelclaud,
As you mentioned "Uses of Enchantment", while I have issues with Bettelheim, one thing he said in that volume does seem important to me and relates to your topic: He argues that you should never explain the meaning of a fairy tale to a child, as the meaning they take away from it may be entirely different than your adult interpretation. By implication, he's saying that these stories work on such a visceral, archetypal level that in some ways they remain off the radar. The Disney marzipan versions invariably--to a great extent simply because they are films--hand you a moral, a single unshakable interpretation, thus depriving the story of other subtextual echoes.
As sf editor Gardner Dozois has said on numerous occasions when advising new writers: "Screw with the archetypes at your peril."
Greg
Edited by: Gregor9 at: 3/18/02 6:54:16 am
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Angelclaud
Registered User
(3/18/02 7:03:20 am)
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Re: Meanings in the tales
To jane: I've been meaning to get my hand on your books. However, I can find none here (I am currently studying in Taiwan). I've asked my Mom to get me the book in Singapore (she's not living in Singapore, but going there for some matter), hehehehe kind of complicated huh. Anyway, I will probably get the book sometime in April. I am looking forward to read it.
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(3/19/02 3:28:25 am)
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Buying Touch Magic
The publisher isd August House and they are on the web. Also you could get it through Amazon etc.
Jane
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Elizabeth
Unregistered User
(3/19/02 1:10:19 pm)
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touch magic
Ihave that book!
I've read it twice and think its so great. I think its so true that disney takes the meat out of the origional tales, but I must admit that watching old disney movies is one of the fondest memories I have of being a child and I still watch them again and again. To me its like candy you can't live on it, but once in a while its nice to have. Ya know. Anyway I recently was at the library with a friend of mine and she would't allow her girls to read any fairy tales at all. She's like "they're satanic." I was so mad. I believe that the Bible is important but fairy tales teach you the truth about human nature in a way that you can't help but understand.
Liz
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/20/02 9:26:53 am)
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Touch Magic
Do try to get ahold of a copy of Touch Magic. It is a slim little
book, but it is pack with all kinds of wonderful wisdom (Okay if
I promote you, Jane?). As I suggested earlier in this thread, it
is also quite useful for the topic at hand. I have also read the
Zipes book with a similar vein , but I find Touch Magic is more
concise. You will find yourself reading it in an afternoon and then
going back to reread again and again to get just a little bit more
out of it. I would be surprised if the Taipei public library doesn't
have a copy of it. Then again it is fairly new, isn't it? Maybe
they don't have a lot of foriegn books yet.
Elizabeth,
Your friend is not alone regarding her feelings about fairy tales. We recently had a thread regarding vigilante censorship of fantasy, fairy tales and even literature written by non-politically correct authors. It is unfortunate that these types of sentiments exist, but you must learn to either accept them or try to change them slowly and patiently. Good luck.
Jess
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SPW
Registered User
(3/20/02 8:36:53 pm)
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I teach this as well
I teach a high school class in which I have students write on the same topic after having spent several weeks studying fairy tales. Many students provide interesting and insightful responses. A deeper question or more to the point question might be: are fairy tales written for children? Disney has certainly changed the pop culture view of fairy tales and one could easily argue that Disney fairy tales are for children (although you could also argue that they should not watch them).
One should also question wheter fairy tales should be read to children. Allowing children to read fairy tales and forcing them to listen are two completly different questions.
One of the articles my students have found useful as a thought launcher for this paper is an artile written by Stephen King entitled "And You Thought Bambi and Snow White Were Scary." It is a simple and easy to follow article written in the early eighties. I think it originally appeared in TV Guide (not the epitiome of critical collections). He directly addresses the question of should children read fairy tales. I also have a copy of an article entitled "Dr. Karl Opel's argument against fairy tales." I thought that the article was on our host web site but I cannot seem to find it. It is on the web somewhere. The article is also a very direct, simple, and easy to follow answer of the question.
I hope that my rambelings have helped.
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Terri
Registered User
(3/25/02 4:44:33 pm)
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Montessori
Just a quick comment to say that the teachers at the Montessori pre-school in my village in England also believe that fantasy and fairy tales can be harmful to children and should not be mixed with a Montessori education. One of my friends teaches there, and was rather taken aback by that aspect of her Montessori training, but she goes along with it, avoiding tales or creative play involving creatures like monsters or faeries. Another friend babysits the child of the woman who runs the school, and reports that this little girl likes to secretly play a game called "Monsters Living in the Drain" every chance she gets.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/25/02 5:53:32 pm)
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Rambling thoughts
Further thoughts about whether children should read fairy tales. Recently - in the last 20 years or so - there has been a trend in the United States toward trying to list what is required for children to have a literate or well-rounded education. Leaders of this movement include William Bennett and Hirsch (of "Cultural Literacy" fame). Whether you agree or disagree with their philosophy regarding education in general, it is still relevant to the topic that they believe that folklore, myths and fairy tales are important in the educational development of children. This methodology seems an extension of the earlier "Harvard Classics" which were touted as books everyone should read. These too included the Arabian Nights, Grimm's, Aesop, and Anderson tales, as well as Homer's the Odyssey. This is incidentally where I first read most of the Arabian Nights, Aesop's and Grimm's - without pictures, Charles.
You could get a lot of pros and critiques of this form of education on the web. They may also lead you into discussion of the appropriateness of this material.
Jess
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Marsha
Sisolak
Registered User
(3/25/02 9:30:01 pm)
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Re: Montessori
In that case, my guess is that the international Montessori organizations are more stringent about the fairy tales being allowed in their schools. Here in the states, there are two organizations -- the AMI (American Montessori International) and the AMS (American Montessori Society). My Montessori diploma is under the AMS.
Some of the international schools that I've visited won't allow carpeting in their rooms because Montessori never had carpeting.
There's nothing in the literature that I've read indicating Montessori believed fantastic literature harmed children -- but it's been several years since I've read them, so I may have forgotten the references.
As for the "Monster in the Drain" game... <g>
Well, I'd say that you can avoid exposing children to fairy tales and myths, but they'll darn well make up their own. Developmental needs tend to be like that. (It's along the lines of what happens when you take toy guns away from children -they just create them out of whatever materials they have around instead.)
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/26/02 11:13:37 am)
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Montessori
Having read the discussion here, I went to the net and found some interesting quotes from Montessori herself regarding toys and fairy tales and other "fantasy" play. It seems that she was opposed to fantasy in general and found that it stiffled intellectual development - better to use your brain power on that which is real than pretend. It is important to note that she was a mathematician of some consequence prior to her developing the education method for which she is now known. As a logician, she failed to understand the underlying meanings and lessons that fairy tales impart to their listeners/readers. Moreover, she clearly didn't understand the importance of fantasy play in intellectual and social development. Interestingly, social development does not seem to be important under her way of thinking.
While many positive things can be said about self-directed learning, I think her comments can also show the limitations of following one person's dogma.
Jess
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Kerrie
Registered User
(3/26/02 4:31:24 pm)
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Montessori and Mathematics
It makes me wonder, then, if she would have liked _Flatland_ by Edwin
A. Abbott. It's a wonderful combination of math, logic, and imagination.
Viewing the world from the POV of a line or a plane gives a whole new
perspective on things!
Soft whispers,
Kerrie
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JaNell
Registered User
(3/27/02 4:26:01 pm)
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Montessori
Kerrie, I love that book! If I had a list of required reading, other than
in my head, it would be on it...
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TsunamiShij0
Registered User
(4/4/02 12:35:44 pm)
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Re: Montessori
As I was doing research for my paper, I found a great quote that would
bewilder Miss Montessori. When Albert Einstein was asked what people should
do to develop intelligence in young children, he replied "Read them
fairy tales, and more fairy tales" I thought this was very interesting.
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