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Comment
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POPPYBK02
Unregistered User
(4/10/02 8:17:55 am)
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Are fairytales childlike?
I've read the disscussion on if fairtales are sutible for children, it would be interesting to know everyones opinon's on this quote from Marina Warner, "There is nothing childlike about fairytales...". This pehaps concerns the issues of horror that is to be found in them, do fairytales scare-munger children. Is is wrong to tell a child that if they run off the bogey man will get them? Is this a role of the fairytale, teaching children what is right and wrong giving them lessons for life? Do they give children moral values? Or should children not be exposed to these tales, are they able to understand that they are not just a story about abandonment, murder, and violence?
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(4/11/02 8:08:17 am)
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Re: Are fairytales childlike?
Out of curiousity, I sometimes ask young children to tell me stories or their dreams. I'll ask younger cousins and sometimes my students if there is time (I teach piano part time). This is purely anecdotal, but the stuff they can come up w/ sometimes is pretty gruesome -murders, being devoured etc. I think the Victorian ideal of childhood being a period of innocence and purity is a bit misleading.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(4/11/02 11:19:12 am)
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Re: Are fairytales childlike?
It seems to me there's a big difference between the horrific elements encountered within a fairy tale itself and an adult telling a child in supposed seriousness that if they run off, the bogeyman will get them. The horror in the context of a story, of a fiction, is intensely powerful but also legitimate as an anticipated effect. (We had this discussion elsewhere on the board as regards our opinions of horror.) Thus I don't think the accusation that fairy tales in some way "horror-monger", which I'm taking to mean terrifying for the sake of terrifying, isn't valid.
As Isthmus Nekoi says, if you open up the fantasy life of a child, it isn't filled with cutesy little Disney characters. There's dark, cruel, evil material in there already, however nice and safe their lives have been. It is that unconscious raw material that, to me, fairy tales speak to. Frankly, I think exploration of those stories and dreams is far more healthy than denial of them. In my experience, people who are afraid of fairy tales--usually expressed through attempts to deny others access to such tales--are well and deeply entrenched in delusions about themselves and others, resulting from ignorance of the very thing they're afraid of (apologies for the pretzel logic there).
Greg
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Jess
Unregistered User
(4/11/02 1:54:25 pm)
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Fairy tales
Fairy tales are in some ways gentle ways of dealing with the more frightening aspects of "the outside world". As Greg as pointed out horror is legitimate. I think for some children it serves as a reminder of how safe home is. For others it may serve as a surrogate for an over protective parent and for others still, it may serve as a reminder that the horror they are facing in their own lives, be it real or fantasy, exists and there can be a just ending (although not always).
I think that children often absorb the subtle messages in the fairy tales and often the most horrible tales are ones in which children are empowered against evil. If one looks at a Hansel and Gretel or Tom Thumb, who resolves not only the children's problems but the adults as well. The same can be said about the Juniper Tree.
As for the Little Red Ridinghood or The Girl that Trod on the Loaf (is that the title?), these are stories akin to a fable with clear cut morals for children to learn - i.e. don't idle, don't be greedy or bad things will happen to you.
I agree with Greg that there is much on the horror thread.
I also want to point out that children rarely see the flip side of the tale - like Jane Yolen's version of the adoptive mother in Rapunzel. It is almost as if fairy tales are told from a child's perspective of the cruel adult world.
Jess
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Jess
Unregistered User
(4/11/02 2:25:32 pm)
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Are fairytales childlike - another thought
This telling of tales from a child's perspective, even very adult tales, is used in "literature" all the time - "To Kill a Mockingbird" comes to mind - the horror of the strange boy down the street - the dealing with adult topics of rape, abuse and prejudice. Clearly, not a child's book and yet it is all that more effective coming from that perspective.
Similarly, fairy tales sometimes tell tales that are juxtaposed to the "innocence" of their audience. Why are these tales so successful? Because the innocence in many ways is parental perspective or hope - not the reality of childhood. Children are painfully aware (as we are in our memories of childhood) of things beyond what they are "supposed to know". Sometimes, the lack of complete information makes these things all the more scarey to children.
More ramblings.
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(4/14/02 7:17:43 pm)
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Re: Are fairytales childlike - another thought
And let's not forget that dangerous and fearful things are not all in the "outside world" for many children. And that even in generally functional families there are a lot of negative emotions that children experience -- and that by containing and ordering those emotions in a fictional setting, the stories can help children master them. I have a child in the semi-terrible twos who makes me aware of just how hard it is to struggle with anger and desire in the face of parental restriction, and this over the most ordinary things like, yes, you must wear your coat when it's 40 degrees outside, or no, you may not drive the car, even though you long for it day and night with your entire being. There's no way you can grow up into a functional human being without having rules and boundaries, and without learning to cope with the frustration and anger those rules and boundaries cause(d) in you.
I've often thought that the bad stepmother of fairy tales functions to some extent as the "evil twin" of one's own mother, displaced onto a separate personage because it's emotionally less problematic.
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