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This is an archived string from the SurLaLune Fairy Tales Discussion Board. |
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| Author | Comment |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/16/01 10:34:11 am) |
Dutch tales???
This may seem like a strange question, but is anyone here an expert on Dutch folklore at all? If so, I will ask more questions of you . . . I'm having trouble finding things I am looking for in translation . . . (And, by the way, sorry I've been sort of a dolt lately on this board, blundering around. I've tried to stay quiet to avoid that predicament, but I've probably failed.) |
| Heidi Unregistered User (8/16/01 2:34:28 pm) |
Won't hurt to look
Kate, I am not very familiar with Dutch tales, but I do love research, so if you have any questions to ask, please do. I was just reviewing the latest Booklist that is a special folklore issue. What fun! Also, I found "The Changeling" in my own library the other day. I am going to read it soon. Did you ever find a copy for yourself? Heidi |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/17/01 10:06:50 am) |
Thanks--
Haven't seen Booklist yet--that'll be fun to peruse. I never did get a copy of Changeling! It was listed as "lost" at the main library here. I didn't do any searches at used book stores though. As for Dutch tales, I'm looking, specifically, for anything and everything related to black swans (sighted in the early 17th century and spawning lore as to their origin, since they were considered 'impossible'). I've found references to folklore about them, but no actual text. Strange. If you have any thoughts on where I could look further, let me know. (Don't do the research yourself! Please! I'd be too guilt-ridden.) Kate |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/17/01 10:08:05 am) |
late 17th century
Not early 17th century. Must never post before my coffee kicks in, apparently. |
| Lotti Unregistered User (8/17/01 1:25:41 pm) |
Strange... Are there
any Dutch folk tales around?
Hi Kate, you got me wondering - I have never come across a Dutch folk tale before. As I live in Germany, this shouldn't be too hard - we're neighbours, after all. Still, I have never seen a book on Dutch fairy tales. I have been searching the web for over an hour now, both in German and English, and I can't find anything. Ok, there was one book on Belgian fairy tales at amazon.de, but that was about it. I also tried "black swans" in German, but I had to look real hard to find even a reference to "Swan lake". Of course, there were the different Swan-involving tales of the Grimm's, but that was about it. I am VERY curious now, I do not believe that there is any people or nation without fairy tales, so, if you find anything, please tell about it on the board! Best wishes and Good luck with your search, Lotti |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/17/01 3:33:58 pm) |
Strange, isn't it?
Lotti, Thanks for checking. I've had the same research conundrum on this, following the routes you describe as well! It seems so puzzling. And to think even in Germany you can't find more! I've just started this quest, so I will definitely keep you up-to-date. I'm going to a university library next week and hopefully that'll unearth something. I'm in dire need of this, so believe me I will persist, and I pray have something to tell you! Kate |
| tlchang Registered User (8/17/01 10:17:42 pm) |
Dutch tales...
I have a book called "Tales Told in Holland", edited by Olive Beaupre Miller and illustrated by Maud and Miska Petersham, published by The Book House for Children, Chicago - 1926. It's a beautiful book and one in a series, I believe. (I've also seen "Tales Told in France" at least). In the foreword it says that it consists chiefly of stories and translations from the greatest Dutch writers and poets along with a few old nursury rhymes. One story from each of the eleven Dutch Provinces... There are a couple of dozen stories - about half of which look like fairy tales (I buy these books mostly for the illustrations :-) so I havent' read many of these). There is a story about a black TULIP, but no swans. (Basilisks, mermaids and storks, however). If anyone is interested, I will list the contents in more detail. Tara |
| Lotti Unregistered User (8/18/01 1:12:43 am) |
Link
www-cust01.energis-idc.ne...glish.html Kate, I found this link to a Dutch literature site via www.Gutenberg.aol. There is an e-mail adress on the page, maybe this helps? Regards, Lotti |
| Lotti Unregistered User (8/18/01 1:15:51 am) |
one more...
www.lib.virginia.edu/wess...html#dutch I have no idea if this helps you... Hope it does! |
| Midori Unregistered User (8/18/01 6:05:45 am) |
working it backward
Kate, There is so much of the "Pennsylvania Dutch" folklore in this country...would it be possible to glance at work on that, anbd thereby work backwards to the country of origin? |
| NancyMe Registered User (8/19/01 5:46:36 am) |
Folk Tales of Holland
I have a reprint of a 1963 book (new edition published by Hippocrene) *Legends & Folk Tales of Holland* told by Adele de Leeuw and ill by Paul Kennedy. But, alas, there are no tales about a black swan or any swan for that manner. |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/19/01 12:30:29 pm) |
Ideas
Thanks, all--these are good leads. I too have the Hippocrene edition--and was depressed it had no swan tales. Tara, I am very interested in Tales Told in Holland, and have started to try to get a copy (ideally the 1926 edition itself). That sounds perfect, perfect. I'll also check out the links. Midori, going backwards from PA history is also a good idea. I have investigated, somewhat, the Pennsylvania Dutch traditions and stories, very scantily to date--not much easily available except when it comes to dance, Christmas and New Years; but I know there is lots more and I plan to delve in, definitely (some of my ancestors were furniture makers in Pennsylvania in fact, but of German descent, not Dutch). I'm so excited to find Tales Told in Holland--how did I not come across it anywhere yet, I wonder? Thanks, again, all. |
| Lotti Unregistered User (8/19/01 1:54:36 pm) |
off-topic, but regarding
Pennsylvania Dutch:
I was in Pennsylvania Dutch Country last year and read a little on their history. The origin of the Pennsylvania Dutch is mainly Germany or German speaking countries. I am not sure if I remember it correctly, but I believe "Dutch" (in this case) is a mangled form of "Deutsch", which is German. Regards, Lotti |
| tlchang37 Unregistered User (8/19/01 8:04:35 pm) |
PA-Dutch
Lotti, You are correct regarding the origins of "Dutch" in regards to Pennsylvania! :-) My parents lived not far from Lancaster, PA - mecca of Amish inhabitants - and smack in the middle of Pennsylvania-Dutch country. I spent one summer taking photos in old PA-Dutch graveyards (very cool tombstones), folk art, and looking up antique and obscure samples of Fractur (illuminated PA-Dutch calligraphy - usually birth and marriage certificates) for an illustration project I was working on. There is a huge repository of visual symbols - uniquely rendered in their very recognizable style. It's terrific, and very accessable folk art. Tara |
| Terri Registered User (8/20/01 12:24:16 am) |
Re: PA-Dutch
Just a quick note to agree with Tara that Lotti is absolutely right. My huge extended family in Pennsylvania, on my mother's side, is Pennsylvania Dutch, which is most definitely a group of German immigrants (mixed in with some Swiss and French Huguenot families), a corruption of "Pennsylvania Deutsch" and not Dutch as in the Netherlands. The Amish folks are probably the most famous PD group, but not all PD people are Amish--even though sometimes people now use the terms interchangeably, which is a mistake. My own PD clan (which ranges from Scranton to Bethlehem, Pennyslvania) are just ordinary working class people, yet all the eldest members of the family used the odd, Germanic PD dialect and strongly identified themselves as PD -- in the way they spoke, they way they cooked, the churches they want to, the crafts they made, and the stories they told. The PD have a fascinating folklore of their own, which relates to German folklore but has a distinctly American twist, the way the "Jack" tales in the Appalachias are related to but different from Anglo-Scots "Jack" tales. There's also a "hexerei" or witchcraft tradition, which is where those beautiful hex signs you see on Pennsylvania barns come from. Nancy Springer, who lives in Pennsylvania, wrote a rather nice fantasy novel some years back called The Hex Witch of Seldem (I think). Edited by: Terri at: 8/20/01 12:30:40 am |
| Lotti Unregistered User (8/20/01 12:41:08 pm) |
Thank you!
I just love it how each topic breeds a wealth of information on this board - I always learn so much from you! Just wanted to say "Thank you" for sharing your family history and knowlegde! It is always so thrilling to browse this site... And just reading your memories brought back my journey from last year, too. Thanks! :-) I am a little confused now, as well: Kate, are you looking for Dutch - as in Netherlands - fairy tales or for Dutch - as in Pennsylvania Dutch - Tales ??!? And to put in my own off-topic little tid-bit again: Tara mentioned "Fraktur" and I am quite interested in fonts and calligraphy, so I can add that this is a special type of font, wich was not in itself calligraphy, but block letters as opposed to script. Both were in use in Germany until the first half of the 20th century, though the Fraktur had become outdated before. Both have been replaced by "Latin" letters resp. script. Still, most people in Germany can still read Fraktur fluently. This comes in handy when reading old books or church records, as they will be printed in Fraktur (or worse, they are written in "German script", which is very different from "Latin script" whereas most of the block letters are closely related). The ability to read Fraktur is also very handy for old fairy tale books, of course! If you find an old edition (19th century or very early 20th) it will definitely be in Fraktur. For me, this is part of the charm and makes the texts even more traditional in my eyes... They look and "feel" more traditional, at least. I believe that Fraktur dates a long way back and that even the Gutenberg bible was printed in an earlier version of it. Sometimes, Fraktur is also referred to as "Gothic letters". When you write it by hand, you have to use a special pen with a broad tip and write very accurately, so I guess it is calligraphy, after all. ;-) Sorry if I go on and on, I just love writing/ fonts/ calligraphy/ letters/ and such... |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/20/01 2:28:02 pm) |
Dutch
All, Indeed, I was looking for tales from Holland in this case. Though, as I think I may have said here (perhaps in response to Midori's post?), my family heritage includes Pennsylvania Dutch (as in German). I am interested here in tales from Holland--and I think I may find what I need in the 'Tales from Holland' book. I hope! Of course, German tales are always of interest to me--I just already have the swan tales I need from there, I think! I'm on a quest for Dutch tales now. I love fonts too, by the way . . . please, DO go on and on about them. Kate |
| Midori Unregistered User (8/21/01 2:58:22 am) |
oh boy
Jeez, thanks everyone for bringing me up to speed on the Penn. Dutch. I feel a bit sheepish here that it never entered my head that they might not be actually Dutch! (I'm laughing at myself, thinking of all those food products in the grocery store with "Dutch" in the title that have absolutely nothing to do with the Dutch either..."Dutch Potato Chips", "Dutch Cleanser", "Dutch Windmill Cookies". What a goose! or should I say stork? Kate, did you try taking a gander (I'm really sorry now, I just couldn't resist...it's that kind of morning!) through the AT motif index for Black Swans? If you haven't yet, I'm up at the library today and will be happy to have a look for you. |
| Gail Unregistered User (8/21/01 5:41:42 am) |
Dutch connections
Hello everyone. I do have a Dutch last name (de Vos means the fox) and therefore have some connections to the old country. I will email my in-laws to see if they know of any tales about swans that are native to their country. Also will try some of the cousins that are still living in the Netherlands. Will let you know what I find out. Gail |
| Kate Unregistered User (8/21/01 4:08:46 pm) |
AT, etc.
Midori, you're not still at the library, are you? That would be great. But if you're not, no worries. (Also, your post made me laugh--on a very stressful day--thank you!) And Gail, also great! I don't know anyone in the Netherlands anymore--the people I know left soon after WWII. Please, though--no one work too hard on this. I know I'm responsible for my own research, I just thought I'd toss the question out for casual replies! Everyone's been so nice. |
| Gail Unregistered User (8/29/01 5:22:22 am) |
black swans
Kate, my in-laws are on a treasure hunt for any tales of the black swan. They both remember fragments of a tale but not the whole thing. They have contacted the old country and when they find it and translate it (my Dutch being non-existant), I will post their findings for you. Actually, I wanted to thank you because they are all excited about this venture! Yours in stories, Gail |
| Kate Unregistered User (9/1/01 2:37:12 pm) |
Fantastic!
Gail, I can't wait to hear if anything turns up. Thanks so very much! Kate |
| Kerrie Registered User (9/2/01 7:15:07 pm) |
Some links...
Well, I did a quick search and here are a few links I've found. They're more about Australia than Dutch, but mention a Dutch explorer who was not believed when he said there was a black swan: birding.about.com/library...once=true& cygnus.uwa.edu.au/~austecol/swan.html www.willamette.edu/~tearle/folklore.htm This next one is a song: www.recmusic.org/lieder/m.../swan.html www.swarovski.com/magazin.../swan.html www.cyberium.net/Ezine/Tw...-wing.html www.seventhage.freeserve....swans.html digital.library.upenn.edu...em-14.html hca.gilead.org.il/travelng.html Not sure if it will lead you in the direction you want, but it's all I could find so far. Dandelion wishes, Kerrie Edited by: Kerrie at: 9/2/01 7:20:03 pm |
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This is an archived string from the SurLaLune Fairy Tales Discussion Board. ©2001 SurLaLune Fairy Tale Pages |
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