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Kerrie
Registered User
(11/13/01 3:47:01 pm)
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Re: new books
Terri and Heidi:
I have the hardbound book, ordered through Amazon on October 1st, after Heidi's recommendation:
Items Shipped on October 8, 2001:
Delivery estimate: October 11-October 15
1 package via UPS Ground.
1 of: Twice upon a Time: Women Writers and the History of the Fairy Tale.
1 of: The Fairy Tale Catalog : Everything You Need to Make a Fairy Tale
That's sooo weird! It says it shipped from Delaware in 1999 and Maryland on Oct 8th. Very odd.
Kate:
It's so good to finally put a face with your words! I'm adding your
book to my very next order! Hmmm, would you like me to try and create
something like a postcard or a half-page image with review excerpts
on the back or something? I'd be more than happy to do so! Let me know!
Forest frosts,
Kerrie
Edited by: Kerrie at: 11/13/01 6:16:59 pm
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DonnaQ
Registered User
(11/14/01 12:20:38 am)
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Amazon Roulette?
Just got a notice today that my copy of of "Twice Upon a Time" is on the way. (I ordered it two days ago.) However, "Stranger Things Happened" has yet to be shipped.
Go figure...
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(11/14/01 3:27:17 am)
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Got it
Got the Katzia and will carry as my travel book tomorrow when I go to NCTE in BAltimore and then down to my daughter's for Thanksgiving. Will be reading right after I finish the latest Earthsea novel.
Do read that, friends. LeGuin is once again at the top of her form.
Jane
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Terri
Unregistered User
(11/14/01 5:50:21 am)
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Twice Upon a Time
Well, that's all mighty strange, because I *did* order the hardback of Twice Upon a Time. Oh well. I'll go order it again, and see what happens...
Erz: If your self-published book has fairy tales or fantasy in it, you should send a review copy to The Year's Best Fantasy & Horror. Here's the address:
Richard & Mardelle Kunz, Asst. Editors
THE YEAR'S BEST FANTASY
PMB #402
2509 N. Campbell Ave.
Tucson, Az., 85719
You won't get a response for the submission; they just log it in and make sure it gets read
at review time at the end of the year. But it *will* be read. Can't guarantee that it will get a
mention in the book (we get so many submissions that we can't list them all), but you at
least have a shot at it.
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erzebet
Registered User
(11/14/01 12:43:33 pm)
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twice upon a time just arrived
It just came! I can't wait to read it - I'm hoping it fills a huge gap in my knowledge. Or one of them, at least.
Terri,
Thank you for that tip. My books, at least those that I'm publishing myself, are more like chapbooks, with one story, some artwork, and maybe some poetry, depending on my mood. I write some fairly bizarre tales that I think just won't fit in many of the fantasy magazines out there. I will certainly send a copy as you've recommended to the Year's Best. Thanks again.
Erz
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Jess
Unregistered User
(11/14/01 7:04:39 pm)
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Great Information
Thanks all. I think I just did my Christmas shopping....and at the top of the list for me is Kate's new book. Kate, that makes you the writer/editor that I will have read the most this year. Thanks for the wonderful material. Still have so much to say about "Mirror, mirror" and now you are coming out with a new edition. I can't even keep up with you. lol
Jess
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Terri
Registered User
(11/15/01 7:30:57 am)
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Re: Great Information
Speaking of new books, the trade paperback edition of "White As Snow" by Tanith Lee (the latest book in the Tor "Fairy Tales" series) has just been released. And "The Winter Child," my second children's faery book with artist Wendy Froud (Simon & Schuster).
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Kate
Unregistered User
(11/15/01 9:02:48 am)
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Thanks!
Jess,
Thanks so much--how nice to know people are finding the novel. (Or trying to!)
Incidentally, the new edition of Mirror, Mirror is scheduled for June 2002 publication, with new essays from Carole Maso, Terri Windling, Midori Snyder and Ursula K. Le Guin (so far--other pieces MAY be included, if I have my way). I'm revising the introduction too, of course. Did you have specific questions about the first edition for me?
Again thanks for seeking out the novel. I hope it doesn't disappoint!
Kate
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Annette
Unregistered User
(11/17/01 7:15:46 am)
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Modern interpretations
Wildwood by Frances Gordon is a modern take on Little Red Riding Hood, although not for children!
I also liked her Changeling, a modern Rumplestiltskin tale.
There's also another one of hers about Sleeping Beauty, but I can't remember the title. :-(
Annette.
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Terri
Registered User
(11/21/01 6:52:16 am)
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Re: Modern interpretations
I finally got my copy of Twice Upon a Time, and have devoured it. It's wonderful to get more information on the French salon writers, for which I'm extremely grateful to Harries. When it comes to modern literary fairy tales, the book is more disappointing. Once again, anyone who publishes outside the mainstream might as well not exist -- Ursula Le Guin, Jane Yolen, Patricia McKillip, Robin McKinley, Delia Sherman, Midori, Tanith Lee, Donna Jo Napoli, Kelly Link, etc. etc...not a mention, not a footnote, nothing, even though each of these authors has written important feminst fairy tale works. I think that there's a case to be made that such authors, publishing under genre or Young Adult labels, are the direct heirs of the French salon women. Like them, their work is marginalized by the literary mainstream, and yet they consciously use fairy tale themes in feminist and subversive ways, keeping these stories alive, updating them for modern readers, and circulating them among a large and enthusiastic audience. The French Academy ignored or dismissed the enormously popular women writers of 17th century Paris, acknowledging only male writers of fairy tales like Perrault. Today, it's the enormously popular women writers who publish under the "wrong" labels that are ignored or dismissed. An interesting parallel... (Okay, I'll get down off that soap box now.)
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(11/21/01 6:59:16 am)
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Harries
Terri--it's not that Betsy Harries does NOT know these folks. Or calue them (us.) I give a lecture every year in her fairy tale class at Smith and her students read BRIAR ROSE for their course. I think she was doing something very different in this book, and really looking at the old rather than the new. But I just got my copy and though I have it with me here in Myrtle Beach, have not read it yet.
Jane
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erzebet
Registered User
(11/21/01 9:15:30 am)
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re: Harries
I agree with Jane, though I am only half way through the book. It strikes me that what Ms. Harries is focusing on is the fact that the "fees" were and are overlooked, deliberately, and that the tales have this rich literary history as opposed to or alongside their oral history.
I would like to add that while perhaps in the more scholarly arenas of today the names of many of you women are indeed overlooked, your average reader and writer, such as myself, goes to sleep with your names on our lips. People such as Terri and Jane, Midori and Tanith, are the ones that many of us who are relatively new to the idea of publishing our work, look up to on a daily basis. It may not mean as much as a credit in a book by someone in the field, but it is true.
Erz
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Terri
Registered User
(11/22/01 6:45:09 am)
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Re: re: Harries
I'm not arguing about the bulk of the book, which concentrates on the past and is brilliant. I was disappointed in the very last section, "New Frames for Old Tales," which looks at fairy tale themes in contemporary art, fiction, and poetry. It's fascinating, and wide-ranging enough to include Olga Broumas, Carolyn Steedman, and Emma Donoghue in with the Usual Suspects (Anne Sexton, Angela Carter, A.S. Byatt, Margaret Atwood) -- yet, once again, you'd never know that there's also a major fairy tale revival going on by writers who publish under genre (or YA) labels. Not a big deal in a single book, I admit, but frustrating when it's part of a general pattern. I adore Donoghue, Broumas, etc., and I vastly enjoyed Harries's discussion of them -- but I personally think that McKillip or Lee or Yolen have contributed just as much to the modern fairy tale field and a nod in their direction, and some others (Le Guin, Sherman, etc.) would be nice. For once.
And it amuses me, in a black humor sort of way, that the very people who talk about how women fairy tale writers of the past have not been valued are, in my humble opinion, ignoring genre and YA women writers today for some of the same reasons: their work is "popular" rather than respectable. The French women created a fairy tale movement and published their work to popular acclaim while the French Academy ignored or dismissed them. Women writers publishing in genre today have created a fairy tale movement and publish their work to popular acclaim while the New York Times book review and academic studies ignore them. The parallels are interesting to me. I'm not suggesting that every fairy tale work published in genre is of the same literary quality as an Angela Carter story -- some of it *is* written specifically for a genre audience, such as Mercedes Lackey's work, since that was brought up on another thread. That's not to dismiss Lackey's work, but it doesn't transcend genre, nor does it attempt to. However, the best of the work by the best genre authors has a genre label only because that's where these women have found a steady audience, and it can certainly sit on the shelves between Angela Carter and Emma Donoghue. It's certainly part of the "women's literary fairy tale" tradition.
Women throughout history have found their voices in areas of the arts overlooked by men and/or the arts establishment. Marginalized areas of the arts -- whether its genre fiction or gay fiction or any other area segregated from the general Literature shelves -- are precisely the places that one should look for the cutting edge of women's arts. Historically, critically ignored areas of the arts were quite often the very places where women found their voices and created subversive, innovative, challenging, works. And one of the things that's challenging about fiction published under genre or YA labels is that it doesn't always adhere to current critical standards of what a "literary" work should be -- any more than the tales by the French Salon writers did. Oops, I'm on that soap box again. It's just that I feel passionately about what the women in our field are doing. But I'll shut up now!
Edited by: Terri at: 11/22/01 7:27:33 am
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DonnaQ
Registered User
(11/22/01 11:17:39 am)
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Don't...
That is: Please don't get off that soap box, Terri...
If it weren't for people like youself, successfully articulating concerns and perptuating discussion about the "critically ignored areas of the arts," marginalized genres (and sections of such) would become even further obscure.
I imagine the discrepancy between "popular" and "respectable" must be extremely frustrating, but there's still a great deal to be said for providing quality material for the masses. Consider how many lives have been touched by the stories of authors like Yolan, Lee and yourself...
Let me take a moment, (on this day of thanks) to say that without the works of these authors, the world would be a lot less wonder and color-filled.
The thing I admire most about your work in particular, Terri, is the way you maintain a highly informed (academic) standard yet never lose the sense of magic. Keep shining bright and any time you want to climb on that soap box, I'll be right behind you cheering you on!
Donna~Q~
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(11/22/01 3:36:27 pm)
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A letter
terri--I expect then you should send a letter to Betsy Harries (Dr. Elizabeth Harries, @English Dept., Smith College, Northampton, Mass 01063..) I bet you will get an answer. She's a fascinating woman.
Jane
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erzebet
Registered User
(11/22/01 4:00:16 pm)
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soapboxes and genres
Terri,
I learn more from your rants than I do from most of the "respectable" essays I read. Never get off that soapbox. I was just this very day commenting to a friend of mine that it is your passion for what you believe in that makes you so admirable.
Being new to the field, as it were, I have a terribly difficult time wrapping my mind around the notion of genre, and what segregates a certain genre, such as fantasy, from a more respected one. I can see everywhere I turn that this is a great issue, and I can also see that, given the nature of several of my own works, I had better come to terms with it fast. I remain for now an idealist, believing that each work should be judged on its merits alone, without it being pigeonholed into one type or another, or held up to literary standards created by a bunch of boring old men (as I like to see it), but my ideals have already come up against some walls.
To hear you voice these concerns enables me to better understand not only what I am reading, but also what I am writing, and any and all rants and soapboxes are greatly appreciated. And on to a question - has anyone yet written a book concerning the contributions of such persons as those you mention (McKillip, Yolen, Lee, Shinn, yourself, etc.), those specifically modern day fees, to the realm of fairy tales? Or concerning the way in which many of you/them cross traditional boundaries of genre? That would be a wonderful read for those of us just beginning.
Erz
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Terri
Registered User
(11/23/01 7:55:52 am)
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Re: soapboxes and genres
Thanks for letting me rant, guys.
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Terri
Registered User
(11/29/01 6:13:22 am)
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TWICE UPON A TIME by Elizabeth W Harries
Has anyone else read this yet? I'm dying to discuss it. It's a fascinating, thought-provoking book, and definitely challenges some assumptions I've had about fairy tales. For instance, Harries disputes the idea portrayed by Marina Warner, Alison Lurie, Angela Carter and others that women were the primary tellers of tales in their oral form in Western cultures. In her opinion, the ideal of the woman storyteller (stereotypically lower class, old, illiterate) was promoted by literary men like Perrault and the Grimms at the same time that the fairy tale works of literary women were being dismissed. That's a provocative notion indeed. She'll get no argument from me that the works of literary women were dismissed -- but I'm not at all sure I'm convinced that women didn't play a large part in the oral transmission of fairy tales...Opinions, anyone? But this is part of a larger contention that fairy tales as we know them are literary works, not oral "folk" creations. I can't do her book-length argument justice by boiling it down to such a simplistic description, however... Boy oh boy what I'd give to see Harries and Warner on a panel together, discussing this subject with views that sometimes match and sometimes seem widely different.
And despite my complaints about the lack of a nod to the vibrant movement of women's fairy tales published under a genre label (at least in the paragraph where she briefly mentions some of the writers that space considerations have caused her to ignore), I was pleased to see Kate's "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall" anthology acknowledged. Yeah, Kate!
Edited by: Terri at: 11/29/01 6:15:07 am
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erzebet
Registered User
(11/29/01 1:49:27 pm)
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Harries
I can only say that I, too, am not entirely convinced that Harries is correct in asserting that women didn't play a large part in the oral transmission of the tales. I have a memory full of being told (not read to) numerous fairy tales by my German great-aunt, who also told me stories of how she learned them on her mother's knee, and on and on back into our family's history. I can't imagine that mine is the only family with this kind of history. It is my opinion that the men who decided to portray these women as old, uneducated, peasant women did it in a deliberate attempt to thwart the popularity of the conteuses. Mind you, I am certainly not aware of all of the political and social tensions of that period of time but I am convinced that the literary elite of the day felt threatened by the talent and invention of those women. Be that as it may, it still remains that women certainly did transmit stories and folklore orally, primarily to children, especially in the poor, rural communities of Europe. I wish I could be more coherent about this right now. My head is killing me.
I am currently rereading some of the more enticing bits of Harries, and I thoroughly expect my current opinions to undergo some transformations as I reach further understandings. I am fortunate to have access to a vast university library which has some of the original versions of the conteuses fairy tales on microfilm. I can't wait to read what's available.
Erz
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Helen
Registered User
(11/29/01 2:16:04 pm)
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Re: Harries
Dear Erzebet:
What a wonderful resource! Which university, if I may ask? Here at Dartmouth, the rare book collection is good, but eclectic, and oddly organized; would you believe that they have an 1893 edition of Marian Cox Roalfe's 345 variants of Cinderella in the stacks? Talk about an embarassment of riches ...
Best,
Helen
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erzebet
Registered User
(11/29/01 2:59:14 pm)
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resources
Helen,
I live right around the corner from the Van Pelt Library, part of the
University of Pennsylvania, chock full of goodies. On my list to get (realted
to this thread) on monday is
The Tower and the Well: A Psychological interpretation of the Fairy Tales
of Madame d'Aulnoy by Amy Vanderlyn DeGraff,
The Female Prince, or, Frederick of Sicily by Catherine Bernard
and Fabulous Identities: Women's Fairy Tales in Seventeenth Century France
by Patricia Hannon.
I am an avid photocopier.
I am always happy to send copies of things out to folk who don't have
access to these types of resources, so if anyone here has a request just
let me know. I go to the library quite often.
Erzebet
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Helen
Registered User
(11/29/01 4:30:06 pm)
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Re: Modern Interpretations
Dear Erzebet:
Would you by any chance be affiliated with the department of Folklore
and Folklife in any way? I'm applying to their Ph.D. program for next
year (I'll actually be visiting for an interview the second week in January)
and I'm eager to hear about what it's like - the program, the college
and its environs, just about Philly in general ... your description of
the library definitely makes the school even more tempting to me! Love
the Patricia Hannon book ... it's proving very useful to me this year
...
Best,
Helen
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erzebet
Registered User
(11/29/01 4:33:21 pm)
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UPenn
Helen,
I'll send you a private email so as not to choke the forum with Philly
trivia.
Erzebet
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