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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(4/29/01 6:51:58 am)
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Re: Godfather/Godmother Death
This is veering a little OT but Catja's comments about a feminine death being portrayed as evil reminded me of the 'femme fatale' character in film noire. I find in film, a male death figure brings connotations of destruction or even justice but a female death figure connotates secrecy and manipulation.
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Terri
Unregistered User
(4/29/01 7:31:09 am)
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the muse and death
Since none of us, as far as I know, are lawyers, I think I'm just going to leave the fine points of copyright law aside and comment on the Hannon poems instead. Midori, thanks for reminding me off those poems, which have set off a whole new train of thoughts. I was coming at "the muse" from a slightly different angle than Hannon's: i.e. the way that being artistically blocked (in other words, lacking the muse in one's life) can be, for the creator, a kind of death in life...comparable to the death-in-life experience of depression. Bly's comments about depression are drawn from James Hillman's work, I believe, in archetypal psychology. Hillman has written at length about the mythic aspects of depression, and how sometimes instead of struggling to achieve happiness with little white pills what we really need to do is to follow that downward motion into the underworld, the land of the dead, in order to learn its secrets, gestate, and then be reborn. (It's interesting how much ceremonial ritual symbolizes that concept -- various puberty rites from around the world, arduous shamanic initiations, and even simpler every-day rituals like the Native American sweatlodge, in which one goes back into the womb of Mother Earth, sybolized by the dark, round lodge, and comes out of the doorway at the end of the ceremony reborn and thus restored to life.)
The Hannon poems raise another interesting point -- the ways in which folkloric and artistic portrayal of the muse is sometimes similar to folkloric death figures. Sometimes the two are paired -- such as the Irish Lhiannan-sidhe, a fairy woman who inspires creativity but causes one to burn so brightly that you burn out and die young. The ultimate femme fatale.
So can these dark, fearsome death figures -- the Lhiannon-sidge, the darker representations of Lillith, etc. -- take on a muse aspect, and point the way to death in anticipation of rebirth? Or am I really stretching here?
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Karen
Unregistered User
(4/29/01 4:01:23 pm)
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Lilith and the muse
No, Terri, I don't think you're stretching at all. There's an article by the poet Laura Riding about how she adopted Lilith as a muse figure. I believe it's called "Eve's Side of it". I can't remember where exactly it was published, but I know that it was quoted by Gilbert and Gubar in THe Madwoman in the Attic. It really struck me at the time because I have a figure like that too.
Karen.
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(4/30/01 5:18:14 am)
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Dark Muse
The figure of the Dark Muse--a kind of combination of seductress, Bell Dame Sans Merci and Angel of Death--is a familiar one. Courting danger, artists burn up in their own fires etc. So much more satisfying than, perhaps, a comfy muse with Doc Martens and a mumu.
Jane
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Midori
Unregistered User
(4/30/01 5:36:27 am)
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transgression
Terri,
yes, yes!! I agree completely with you...my reading of Hannon has been altered by both our interesting posts on the female image of death and Anzaldua's remarkable image of Coatilcue as her muse. I really think that there is a very nuanced and essential emotion evoked in the image of the terrifying female muse combined with the female image of death/life demon/mother creature. I think it was Cory Ellen back a page who raised the idea that the image of the demonic female death giver (especially associated with figures like Lilith) was more of the usual anti-feminist rhetoric. And I think that is certainly true on one hand--the more patriarchal the traditional community became the more defined and limited women's roles became....and yet change is often introduced into the folk narrative and into faith texts and mythology as acts of transgression (whether breaking the folk tale interdiction "don't walk off the path" to the "thou shalt not" of faith.) Change is regarded as essential for the community, even as it is regarded ambiguously. So, very broadly speaking, if the images of males in narratives largely address issues of return to stable power structures, (the hero restores the community, takes over the juridical position of his father) it is in some sense left to the female figures to be the agents of change. The more narrowly women's identities and roles are defined within the culture, the more emotional evocative power there is in images of her transgression. A man misbehaves...and he is allowed a certain latitude, women "misbehave" and it is read as a threat to the entire community. I am sitting here fascinated at the moment by the idea that even as the images of a Lilith or Hannon's taloned, annihilating Muse terrify, they are embraced as transgressing moments that allow mere mortals to step across the line of order and dip into the chaos. Think of the amazing layers of meanings, the mulitple signs attatched to these female figures that straddle those boundaries between life/death, creativity/destruction, joy and endless grief, the solid weight of the underworld and the emotional chaos their acts commit.
I should probably start a separate post on "transgression" because it is a fascinating topic...for folklorists and theorist in general. Contemporary authors, especially women writers (from avariety of cultures) often express their acts as women writers as forms of transgression...crossing the cultural boundaries established for them by their patriarchial communities, their class position and the larger world. For the subaltern to speak demands an act of trangression. (There is a fabulous article on this by the way by Ines Salazar called "Can You Go Home Again? Transgression and Transformation in African-American Women's and Chicana Literary Practices" that can be found in a great new anthology "Post Colonial Theory and the United States, Ed. Singh and Schmidt, U of Mississippi Press, 2000). It got me thinking about how there is even embedded in traditional cultures an appreciation, a *need* for those agents of transgression to give voice, body and substance to the necessity of change within a community. Therefore I am beginning to think that those fearful, powerful, ambiguous descriptions of female death/life givers-muses are more than anti-feminist rhetoric...they take their weight, their importance not as a sign of bad women who must be avoided, but from the shock of the contrast between good girls and bad, the symbolic power of the transgressor to initiate change. So as much as they are feared, they are also wanted--and their power is never entirely diminished in the tales.
So here is another thought...when we have male trangressors, who are equally important, they are usually tricksters. (Legba, the Nigerian trickster ends a drought by having all sorts of wild sex with the dead ancestors of the village.) But we have mentioned before the dearth of female tricksters who might have the same chaotic energy--maybe that's because those female transgressors are in the Muse/death/life demon-women?
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Terri
Unregistered User
(5/2/01 6:40:10 am)
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death, the muse, and transgression
>So here is another thought...when we have male trangressors, who are equally >important, they are usually tricksters. (Legba, the Nigerian trickster ends a drought >by having all sorts of wild sex with the dead ancestors of the village.) But we have >mentioned before the dearth of female tricksters who might have the same chaotic > energy--maybe that's because those female transgressors are in the Muse/death/life >demon-women?
Interesting point, Midori, because in the case of the male transgressors, the tricksters, their
disruptive behaviour is presented in its duality, both destructive and constructive; both
annoying (or worse) and necessary for the health of the community. Yet these demon-women
are presented as simply destructive. Even when they have a muse quality, the stories don't
seem to dwell on any good that comes out of this -- acts of creation that wouldn't have
happened without her help and might be good for the community at large -- but just on
the destructive aspect, as a kind of cautionary tale: don't mess with this wild female energy,
it will be your death. (And it's real-life implication: don't mess with wild, strong, creative women
-- they'll devour you.) Are there equivalent cautionary tales for women? Are there male-muse figures, both seductive and dangerous?
By the way, if anyone here is as obsessed by the notion of the muse as I am, I highly recommend
May Sarton's novel Mrs. Stevens Hears the Mermaids Singing, about an elderly poet looking back on her life and wrestling with some of these same questions. It's terrific.
Midori, do you have a copy of that Salazar article? My library doesn't have the book, and it's something I'd love to read. At Wiscon every year (as you know) they try to have a few panels addressing the subject of class, and it looks like I'm going to be moderating one for writers from working-class backgrounds looking at the subject of "border crossing" in life, art, and genre fiction. Should be interesting. I have a copy of Azaldua's work on borders somewhere; thanks for reminding me of it. I'm still unpacking book boxes, but I think I know which one that's in...
And yes, a thread about trangression sounds good! (It would make a good Wiscon topic next year too....)
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Jenna
Unregistered User
(5/3/01 11:20:29 am)
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death and trangression
Oh, oh, oh, such a juicy topic and me with no time to respond properly. But I'm enjoying lurking so please don't stop! And Midori where can I find those Michael Hannon poems? I need to read more of his work.
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Midori
Unregistered User
(5/4/01 5:31:34 am)
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Hannon
Jenna,
The Hannon poems can be found in a collection called "Ordinary Messengers" published by Floating Island Press (1991). It's been out of print for quite some time...though I go and "visit" my copy at the special collections room in the University Library. It is well worth the effort. His writing is really amazing.
Terri,
I think you're right there certainly seems an overwhelming amount of negative and cautionary qualities to the females with energy who transgress...but what about Yellow Woman? She is clearly associated with both sexuality, unbridled behavior, and yet there is social tolerance, an acceptance of her need to leave her kids and husband and take off (and sometimes return later pregnant or with new kids in tow). Sometimes too, her acts are associated with bringing water back to the community, or food, or in some way realigning nature and the community. Her presence both within the orthodoxy of her social role as a wife and mother, and the license she seems to have to step out of that role is really interesting--epecially as she is permitted to return without punishment. Though I am scratching my brain a bit as I think that like trickster, she doesn't always succeed. Which leads me to another thought...when trickster is successful, we can feel confidence in that chaotic and wild energy as acts that work in our favor...so transgression is part of creative and productive change. But as easily trickster is a disaster...either to himself or his dupe (the Tibetian rabbit trickster for instance who accepts a job as a babysitter and then eats the baby, and then very hilariously escapes all punishment...if that ain't a cautionary tale about not hiring tricksters to watch your kids! Then there is the Zande trickster from the Congo who tries to imitate the actions of a scorcerer who can produce food from his body and winds up eviserating himself...) Thus as wonderful as (male) tricksters can be, truely there is always something cautionary and scary about them too? Don't you think?
I am rummaging my notes for information on the Sirens...fascinating and dangerous muses (along with their sister, Circe.)
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Terri
Unregistered User
(5/4/01 7:00:04 am)
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death/the muse/transgression/tricksters
Yellow Woman is an interesting example of a mythic woman being allowed to have a wild side to her nature without necessarily being portrayed as evil. Also in Native American tales, what about the Deer Woman -- dangerous as she can be, is she ever actually evil? (Oh, we need Carolyn here!) She certainly fits the role of the muse in some stories, although only after a hero demonstrates correct behaviour toward her (getting back to our manners thread)...and in such cases, when the man is gifted with gifts of poetry, artistry, or the ability to speak with animals after a successful encounter with her, I don't recall any tales (Carolyn?) in which this gift of poetry is tainted, as in the Irish Lhiannansidhe and similar tales where the gift ultimately bestows death. (Yet I'm still wondering if we can read that death in another way -- as a death to an old life and rebirth into something new, rather than literal death.... in which case these needn't be read as cautionary tales at all.)
Certainly, Midori, you're right that Trickster tales are often cautionary tales. And the losers in such stories seem to be equally divided between men and women. That's not quite what I was wondering about though. I'm wondering if there are muse figures for women...and if so, are they feminine or masculine figures? And are they double-edged ones (creativity inextricably bound with death) like the Lhiannansidhe? All I can think of is dangerous seducers, not muses - like the Glanconer, the Irish "love-talker" -- a most beguiling death figure (winding slowly back to the original subject of this thread.)
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Midori
Unregistered User
(5/4/01 8:35:30 am)
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muse/death
Terri,
my first thought of muses for women was Orpheus...who although an equal opportunity sort of lyric muse, seems tragically bound up with women. He has a singing contest with the Sirens and beats them...where upon they either lose their voices or commit suicide depending on the tale. And then of course the meneads, those crazy wild women, rip him apart later, scattering all his bits into the river, his head floating downstream. Hmm..let me give this more thought. It might be a nice moment to rethink Sheherazade...staving off death with artistry...the lack of inspiration, creativity being death...I know we had some interesting exchanges on this earlier...I'll go back and see if I can find them.
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(5/4/01 10:53:17 am)
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Hmmmm
Now my mind went not to a muse of poetry, but to Cassandra, who was a seer and a truth speaker, never believed.
And to that wonderful short story by Le Guin in which Coyote is a woman, "Buffalo Girls Won't You Come Out Tonight."
There's an fabulous book on tricksters called "The Guizer" by Alan Garner. Tricksters are such puzzling figures of chaos without whom there is no civilization, an oxymoron that poets understand best.
I seem to be mind-farting right now. A combination of heat and a return from a five day conference.
Jane
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