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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(4/25/01 10:02:28 am)
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Define "fairy tale"
This is a specific question I have been asked a lot which of course defies a solid definition. I have read Zipes' introductions about fairy tales and some other writings, but I would like to get everyone else's ideas and thoughts on this topic before I begin writing.
Zipes, if I am not mistaken, attributes the term "fairy tale" as coming from the French salons.
Also, I am still researching, but when did "fairy tale" become a "derogatory" phrase, demeaning a tale (or anything else) as childish fantasy, not to be taken seriously? Has anyone read about this? Was it instantaneous with the coining of the term? The earliest I have seen it in literature is in Bronte's "Jane Eyre" where it is used as a label to dismiss part of a conversation.
I need to go consult OED, of course. But since I don't have one handy at the moment, I thought I would throw this out to the group for some discussion.
Thanks!
Heidi
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erectionpants
Registered User
(4/25/01 9:25:15 pm)
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Re: Define "fairy tale"
Hello, everyone! I'm back again after a long absence due to a difficult quarter.
(Don't mind my user name -- it's a joke from another board)
Anway, Heidi, you're right. Zipes does attribute the term "fairy tale" to the French salon writers. One of the most famous collections was the _Cabinet des fees_ (sp.?), which English translators read as "fairy tales"; the name was soon expanded to include similar stories, including those of the Grimms and Andersen. Zipes uses "fairy tale" to mean a written, literary shaping of folk material; he is attempting a scholarly redefinition of the term, rather than a popular one. This usage has, to a certain extent, caught on among folklorists. But, like most folklore terms, its usage is not universal.
Most scholars seem to like the term Marchen (Ger. "story") for what we usually think of as fairy tales, but some think that's too broad. Marchen can encompass both realistic folktales and magical tales; when referring to the latter, sometimes "Zaubermarchen" is used. Vladimir Propp liked "wonder tale." But "fairy tale," whether referring to the folk product, or like Zipes, to literary shapings, is still the most common term.
I think that "fairy tale" has always carried the connotation of "improbable fiction," for as long as the term has been around. That's one of the distinguishing characteristics of a fairy tale, as opposed to a myth or a legend -- the listeners understand it as a fiction crafted for entertainment purposes. Legends carry some semblance of belief -- they're usually told in a manner that suggests that somebody, somewhere, believes this to be true, even if the teller doesn't. Myths are understood to be true on some level, at least in the culture that adheres to them. Of course, none of those categories can be absolutely fixed either, and there's a lot of overlap. Too, as fairy tales became adapted for children, and then came to be seen as fit ONLY for children, the term became more derogatory. It's linked, i think, to Andrew Lang and the cultural evolutionists; peasants (the folk) are sort of in the childhood of civilization, and therefore their products are on the same level as those of upper-class "civilized" children. All primitives, think alike, see. This theory died out, rightfully, in the 20th century, but the use of "fairy tale" to mean something juvenile stuck.
Fairy tales differ from more realistic folktales chiefly in the construction of the tale world. In a fairy tale/Zaubermarchen/wonder tale, magic is absolutely taken for granted. Nobody stops and says "Frogs don't talk!" Strange things happen, and nobody bats an eye; that's the major difference between a fairy tale and a realistic folktale. The main characters are generally human, as opposed to gods or demigods, and are of stock types. The fairy tale world is amorphous, unconnected to a time more specific than "Once upon a time" or a place more specific than "a faraway kingdom." Legends, by contrast, take place in our own world -- if not the here and now, than some specific time or place.
That's the definition that I give to my students, and it seems to
work well; there are, of course many others, but I've found this
one the most useful. How's that for a start?
Catja
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Gregor9
Registered User
(4/26/01 9:40:27 am)
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Tales
That's pretty thorough, Catja. Wow. Thanks, I'm going to refer to this a lot when explaining the idea of the fairy tale to writing students.
The tales from the salons were the first phase in the French love affair with the fairy tale. Maybe, from a purist position, they are thus the definitive ones. The second phase in France is often measured from Galland's publication of "The Arabian Nights", at which point the definition shifts to encompass these more exotic stories, which are quite different in many ways from the salon tales.
In a sense I think you don't have a definition, but a collective definition that has historically been flexible enough to morph accordingly to enfold more and more stories and approaches.
The distinction the Catja gives that "in fairy tales...magic is taken for granted" is often applied as a distinguishing characteristic to contemporary magic realism; and I immediately begin to wonder if perhaps we just haven't invented some new words to cover the same phenomena--and very possibly because, as the original question proposes, the term "fairy tale" has taken on derogatory connotations over time.
Must think more on this...
Greg
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XYZ
Unregistered User
(4/26/01 8:59:47 pm)
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FAIRY or not FAIRY
hello Heidi Anne Heiner, and all
On reading this topic, I just have a thought that, in "fairy tale", there is the term
"fairy", so, is it right to conclude that a fairy tale must be somehow to deal with a fairy?????
Anyhow, I see all the definitions which already suggested above are very good
thanks all for the topic
XYZ
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erectionpants
Registered User
(4/27/01 6:17:13 pm)
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Re: FAIRY or not FAIRY
XYZ,
Not really. That's why Zipes and others have attempted a redefinition of the term.
The "fairies" in fairy tales are referred to as such primarily in the Fench tales, which use the term "fee" (fairy), like in the collection _Cabinet des fees_ -- it is really due to this collection that magical folktales were given the English name "fairy tales" in the first place. In the German tales, these magical figures are usually called "Zauberin" or "Hexe," -- "enchantress," or "witch." When the "little people" make a rare appearance, they're generally dwarves or elves, and in one tale, a water nixie. Stories from the British Isles tend to be a mixed bag, with both fairies and sorceresses cropping up, in both benevolent and malevolent roles. English translations of French or German tales tend to follow the practice of the original -- fairy godmothers for French stories, witches for German.
Fairy lore proper, concerning the so-called "little people," rarely falls under the category of "fairy tale." Most accounts of fairies are in fact legends -- i.e., "Go to this particular hill on Midsummer Eve, and you'll see fairies." Or "At Knockgrafton a long time ago, a hunchback was cured by the fairies." Fairy narratives are primarily anecdotal, or to use the folklore term, memorates -- accounts of personal encounters with the supernatural. The point being, there is an element of belief in most fairy narratives -- you're supposed to say at the end, "Is it true?"
That's not to say that fairies don't show up in fictional narratives (as fairy tales are) -- they certainly do. But their importance AS FAIRIES is often negligible -- they often fill the generic role of helper or hinderer, which could often just as easily be filled by a witch or magician or St. Peter; for instance, the Grimms' "Water Nixie" behave like any other wicked stepmother/witch. There are exceptions -- The Grimms' "The Shoemaker and the Elves," for example -- but they're rare. And even the French tales, which make liberal use of fairies, don't really contribute much to our knowledge of folk beliefs in fairies -- they're mainly court ladies with magical powers.
There's no necessary framework of belief around a fairy character in a fairy tale -- he or she is simply another magical being in a magical world. But fairy lore itself is concerned with the real world. The issue is of course confused by the term "fairy tale," and complicated by Tolkien's use of the term "Faerie" to describe the magical realm of folktales, mythology, medieval romance, and fantasy.
So, to answer your question in short form, no, a fairy tale does not have to have anything to do with fairies -- in fact, O would wager that at least half of what we think of as the classic fairy tales, especially among the German, don't concern beings known as fairies or elves at all. The term is really a misnomer, as Zipes has pointed out, which is part of the reason why so many scholars prefer "Marchen" or "wonder tale."
Catja
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(5/4/01 6:28:40 pm)
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Re: FAIRY or not FAIRY
Thanks everyone!
And, yes, Catja, the actual question I am most asked is:
"Why are they called fairy tales if there aren't any fairies in them?"
Heidi
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XYZ
Unregistered User
(5/14/01 11:52:50 pm)
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just one more thought
I just happen to remember that, even in my language, the term fairy is misleading also
my lanquage said: than thoai = fairy tale
in which:
the word "than" = superbeing, fairy, angle. etc
and "thoai" = a narrative story
more interestingly, in "than thoai", it is not necessary to have a fairy, although, most of the case, there are fairies or some superbeings in that
besides that, "than thoai" is considered to be belong to "co tich", which means ancient narrative stories = folklore (???)
So, in conclusion, I see that, not only in English that we have a misnomer "fairy", but, it seems to be a widespread phenomenon in the whole world
XYZ
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Gregor9
Registered User
(5/16/01 8:08:54 am)
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From the beginning
XYZ,
Yes, it's a misnomer in many languages and was right from the start. The French term contes de fee covered the original stories as told in salons, and even then they weren't stories that necessarily had fairies in them. When the second wave of fantastic stories swept through--that being translations of the
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XYZ
Unregistered User
(5/16/01 9:15:21 pm)
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thanks
thanks to Gregor 9
the problem becomes clearer now
thanks to you again
XYZ
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Gregor9
Registered User
(5/17/01 10:00:59 am)
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Problems?
I just noticed that the board lopped off a good two thirds of what I posted yesterday. Is this a recurring problem?
G
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(5/17/01 5:24:27 pm)
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Re: Problems?
Sorry, Greg,
I am not sure what happened. Has then been happening to other posters, too? It hasn't happened to me.
Hopefully it was just a rare and random, albeit extremely annoying, glitch.
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spideri
Registered User
(5/23/01 8:53:15 am)
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meaning of "fairy" tale
To add to your interesting chat.
The word "fee" derives, i believe, from a Latin feminine word, "fata", ( a varient of "fatum", or fate, meaning a goddess of destiny. (SEE Lady Antonia Fraser's "From The Beast To The Blonde".
A creature from the realm of fate, i.e. from where decisons and powers lie beyond human ken. Invisible forces that oversee and govern us: including rewards & punishment meted out by these invisible moral authorities.?
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Janeyolen
Unregistered User
(5/23/01 11:03:26 am)
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Quick correction
Actually From the BEast to the Blonde is by Marina Warner.
Fascinating book.
Jane
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spideri
Registered User
(5/23/01 3:45:43 pm)
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meaning of "fairy tale"
Correction (thank you, jane yolen)
"From the Beast to the Blonde"is by Marina Warner
begging thy pardons
beatrice
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