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| Author | Comment |
| Kerrie Registered User (1/5/01 12:20:13 pm) |
Absolute favorite... This may seem silly, but it just seemed a little too quiet and I don't know what else to talk about at the moment. (Ok, so it's quiet at work, and my mind is floating) What is your absolute favorite fairy tale? (or folklore or mythology) Was it always your favorite? Why is it your favorite? To be fair, I'll start. I think my favorite is Beauty and the Beast. (My second is Snow White and Rose Red because of my sister) There are others I've liked a lot, usually in the moment (ex- if I'm cleaning, I like Cinderella, going to bed- Sleeping Beauty, visiting grandparents- Little Red), but B&B returns the most. I think it has to do with the rose. The rose is my favorite character, with a life of its own. I want to say there was a story about that rose, but can't remember. I like the solitude of it as well- the story isn't busy with lots of characters running around. At the core, it is about two people, alone (unless you work for Disney, but that's a whole other story). They are the world to each other, whether beautiful, cruel, compassionate, vulgar, whatever. I think it's also a little more down to earth than the other stories as well. Other than the Beast being a prince, Beauty and her family are from the merchant class. Her love brings out the best in him, and he always treats her as a princess. Shouldn't love always be like that? Ok, so I'm starting to get mushy. Love to hear what others have to say! |
| Richard
Parks Registered User (1/5/01 2:54:33 pm) |
Re: Absolute favorite... I'm very fond of Beauty and the Beast myself, but I'd have to say my current favorite "fairy/folk tale" (if we're defining those terms rather broadly) is the story of Beowulf and the Dragon. Beowulf and Grendel gets most of the attention, but this section of the poem resonates most strongly with me, especially as I get older. I mean, here is the old hero, well past his prime and at the time of life when he should have been free to sit by the fire and bore everyone to tears with his youthful exploits. Yet Beowulf straps on his armor one last time and fights the dragon because as king it's his responsibility to protect his people, and because he's the only one who can. |
| Midori Unregistered User (1/5/01 4:39:13 pm) |
age Richard, Absolutely, I agree with you about the elder Beowulf. It is such a somber and sad victory--the end of the hero's life and the final crossing into death. As a kid I loved the Grendel tale, but as you said, as I've gotten older, I look more and more at the beauty of the second half; the dragon and Beowulf, together part of a time that is being lost. We are so used to reading rites of passage tales in which the fantastic opens up the possiblities of the future, that is unusual and more reflective when we experience an engagement with the fantastic that leads to a shared death. Have you read the fabulous new Heaney translation? I have two favorite heroine tales: Armless Maiden (escpecially the South African versions), and The Monkey Girl (a reverse Beauty and the Beast from the Sudan). For heroes, its Sikhaluma, a Xhosa hero tale, the Mwindo Epic (from the Congo) any of the heroes of the Russian tales (such as Vasilisa the Wise, and Maria Morevna). For trickster, it any Uncle Tompa tale (from the Tibetan) or Legba (from the Nigeria). For older women's tales and married tales, any Baba Yaga tale, "Women Give Birth to Birds" (from South Africa), "Husband's Revenge" (from Sudan) and Yellow Woman stories. More recently I have been reading warrior women tales, and so my favorite of all, are the stories around Tomoe Gozen, the Japanese warrior woman of the Gempei Wars. So I can't just pick one favorite...I guess I thought of tales that I have read over and over again and am pleased each time I find them. Not to mention they carry strong images for me that often find themselves as the nucleus for some idea in a story. But you know, I am still reading so many stories all the time....that next year my favorites might be all different... And you're right...the board has been very quiet--I am recovering from way too much Christmas chocolate and four feet of snow that managed to fall in about two weeks... we had a day of thaw and for a change I did not have to shovel. |
| Richard
Parks Registered User (1/5/01 6:01:34 pm) |
Re: age Midori, I have not read the new translation, though of course I've heard a great deal about it. It's on my list, for sure. When I heard that my own Beowulf and the Dragon retelling was going to be part of the supplemental reading for a course on Beowulf at UoF (Concentrating on the Heany tranlation, naturally) I thought I'd died and gone to my reward a little early. Tomoe Gozen is a fascinating character too, all the more so for being a real person. Have you seen Kara Dalkey's new novel on the period, GENPEI? I'm going to clear some time for that one. It is hard to name just one favorite, I know. I'm rather fond of the Japanese creation myths, starting with Izanami and Izanagi, that primal variation on the Orpheus and Eurydice myth. |
| Gail Unregistered User (1/6/01 3:35:01 pm) |
Tomoe Gozen Just thought I would mention a favourite graphic novel that encompasses Japanese historical and folkloric characters and stories. The following quote is from the creator -- Stan Sakai -- about Usagi Yojimbo and the other characters in this series: "Usagi, like I said, was based on Miyamoto Musashi. Tomoe Ame, the female cat warrior, was based upon Tomoe Gozen, who was a female warrior famed for her beauty and her skill with the lance. Sh e's an interesting character. There's not that much written about her; she lived during the time of the Gempei Wars, and her husband was a famous general who eventually committed seppuku but refused to let her die with him because he would have lost face if he was to die with a woman. So she eventually became a nun. Lord Hikiji, around whom a lot of the stories revolve, is based upon Date Masamune, who lived around the turn of the 17th century, and was one of the most powerful lords in feudal Japan. He too wanted to become Shogun, but he never did. Interestingly eno ugh, he sent the first Japanese emissaries to Rome to meet the Pope, and it was a mission that ended in failure. But he was one of the most powerful and influential lords of Feudal Japan." |
| Midori Unregistered User (1/7/01 7:26:16 am) |
Tomoe Gail, I have been doing alot of research on Tomoe and many of the Western popular ideas of her are a bit skewed. She probably wasn't married to Kiso Yoshinaka but in the Heike Monogatari (the epic in which she first appears) came with him as a mistress. She was most likely the daughter of the serving class (maybe the daughter of Yoshinaka's wetnurse) and was raised with him. Yoshinaka didn't commit seppuku--that is part of his tragic character in the epic. He leaves the field of battle to commit seppuku but then hesitates, turns back to see his servant holding off the samurai and in that instant receives a fatal arrow in the neck. His enemies then strike off his head and mount it on a spear. It's the loyal servant who kills himself after seeing his master so dishonorably killed in battle. It is true that Tomoe has been instructed to leave the field of battle, and throws off her armor....but there are many differing stories about what happens to her afterward. Some have her married to a rival warlord where she gives birth to a son with superhuman strength, another has it she becomes an intinerant dancer and continues to sing the "tales of the Heike" in the years following the end of the Gempei wars, keeping the story of Yoshinaka alive. There was historically an interesting group of women dancers at the time and they often began their own performances with stories of Tomoe (some declaring they were Tomoe), which made for a wonderful confusion as to whether any one of them might in fact have been the real Tomoe...(sort of like all the great Anastasia stories after the fall of the Czar). I have been working with a Japanese friend to read the Japanese scholarship on Tomoe and the breadth of her stories is fascinating--most of it appearing after the end of the civil war and being provided by women performers. |
| Gail Unregistered User (1/7/01 8:35:57 am) |
Tomoe and Sakai Thanks Midori. I haven't had a chance to do any background research on Sakai's characters but will now -- I am preparing a course for distance learning (on the Internet) on comic books and graphic novels for the University of Alberta here in Canada and know that this series is very popular with young readers. In fact I am including it in my young adult course that I am teaching this term and so will delve into it with quiet and quick enthusiasm. I do owe you an apology on another front. I have been meaning to contact you to tell you how well your story worked at the wedding of my friends. People came up to me and asked if it was supposed to make them cry! I certainly was hoping for some emotional response. I gave the bride and groom a "soul string" braided from the tail of my daughter's horse and the bride wore it as a braclet for the rest of the evening. An intresting side story is that my daughter is also getting married this summer! |
| Midori Unregistered User (1/7/01 2:09:30 pm) |
tomoe anime Gail, My Japanese friend discovered there is a huge market of Tomoe comics written by hip young Japanese women authors and produced for the girl teen market. They have a bit more bite than the Americanized versions and all the art work has accurate drawings of weaponry and clothing...I am waiting for a bunch of them to come for me from Japan. I don't know how soon you are putting together your course--and of course these materials are all in Japanese--but I might be able to get you a reference or two at least for those interested in the Japanese (and feminist) treatments. I'm delighted your friends like the Gest and Mara story. That makes my day. And congratulations on your daughter's up coming wedding! (and best of luck with the planning!) |
| Gail Unregistered User (1/7/01 3:22:06 pm) |
Japanese comics Midori, the course encompasses Japanese comics (or at least what we know about them here in the west) and I would be delighted with references when you can get them to me. The course will be offered in the fall of 2001 (right after the wedding of course) and so I do have a little bit of time. I know that this is off topic for the rest of you but it may interest you that my comic book seller of Japanese material tells me that many of her customers are teaching themselves or taking courses in Japanese with the express purpose of reading these manga before the long wait to have them translated into English. And many of the Japanese tales incorporate the mythology of both Japan and China. It is a slow learning process on my part for my Japanese is non-existant and although I did live in Laos for several years in my early twenties, I do not know the Japanese culture or tales very well. I have to admit (and to get back to the actual topic of this forum) that one of my favourite characters/fairy tales is the fox-woman from Japanese tales. Some of it has to do with the fact that de Vos (my husband's name) means "the fox" in Dutch but more has to do with my fascination with female transformation. Gail |
| Gregor9 Registered User (1/8/01 11:30:36 am) |
Kaidan Slightly off-subject, but since this has gotten very Japanese-specific, I would have to weigh in and add the body of Kai-dan stories--Japanese tales of ghosts and hauntings. The ones most familiar in the west are those collected by Lafcadio Hearn, the expatriate New Orleans writer, under the title of "Kwaidan." Otherwise, most of the Japanese stories with which I'm familiar (Tomoe Gozen aside) are aikido-related; I'm not sure if stories that may be apocryphal aikido origin stories are defined to folk tales or not, but I've encountered a few as a student of that particular martial art. Most seem to exist to make a point about trusting one's instincts or serve as cautionary tales. GF |
| Richard
Parks Registered User (1/8/01 12:23:14 pm) |
Re: Kaidan I suppose it _is_ topic drift, but conversations do go where they will. I haven't been able to find a print copy of KWAIDAN, though I do have a Japanese video based on the stories which is really fine. The imagery, especially for the Yuki-onna tale, is superb. What little Japanese I know I've learned trying to read manga, so it's probably not that unusual a thing. But then, I think Rumiko Takahashi is one of the better storytellers working. |
| Midori Unregistered User (1/8/01 2:53:32 pm) |
Eight Dogs Richard, Are you familiar with "The Hakkenden" or the Tale of Eight Dog Warriors? The novel is fabulous but I know that it has come to the states in all kinds of anime forms--including one directed by Takashi Anno. There are quite a few very interesting web sites committed to it--Gail, if you don't know this group of stories you might find it very engaging for the course you are developing. I found it by way of the great turn of the century Japanese warrior prints (Kuniyoshi especially)--gorgeous stuff of fantastic fight scenes on roof tops... |
| Gail Unregistered User (1/8/01 4:12:32 pm) |
thanks I will look for it. Thanks for the suggestion |
| Richard
Parks Registered User (1/8/01 6:04:36 pm) |
Re: Eight Dogs Midori, I've heard of the basic story though I haven't seen the anime or read the novel. Isn't this based on the legend where the _damiyo_ promises his daughter to the one who brings him the head of his enemy, and that turns out to be the dog? There's a fairytale premise right off the bat, though it certainly takes a different tack than a western interpretation might. Is there a particular translation you can recommend? |
| Midori Unregistered User (1/9/01 4:54:26 am) |
Hakkenden Richard, The Hakkenden was a novel written at the turn of the 19th century by Kyoukutei Bakin and was enormously popular--alas it has not been fully translated into English yet (at least I haven't found a full translation--only bits and pieces as reference materials). However it became hugely popular in Japanese anime (along with other great hero epics like the 47 Ronin, Tomoe Gozen...) There is a wonderful web site maintained by a Japanese man that is full of great stuff on the novel: www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~opaku/#E The story is fabulously complicated: A Lord in the midst of battle agrees to give his daughter, Fusahime, in marriage to anyone who will kill the rival Lord. His dog, Yatsufusa goes out and does it and the daughter is married to him. She conceives (in a virgin birth) kills herself out of the shame of having dog children and ascends into the spirit world. Her rosary breaks apart and eight of the crystal beads carry the spirits of the eight dog children. Those eight are reincarnated to human mothers as men (along with their beads). The tale of their fantastic exploits is a long complicated narrative of the brothers, scattered over the islands, gradually rediscovering each other (sometimes in the midst of fighting each other). Each one of them of course is very different, associated with a different crystal bead of the rosary which features a different Buddhist concept, different fighting strengths...but all recognizible as "hakkendenshi". It's really an awesome epic... I saw some modern day stuff (w/ a sf setting) but I'll admit to liking it in the old tale tradition. The web site mentioned also gives the differences between the original story and its reinterpretation in the anime. |
| Midori Unregistered User (1/9/01 5:40:30 am) |
spelling aargh, sorry I'm not fully awake yet! That should be "Hakkenshi"--which is what the eight dog-warriors are called. Actually if you go to the above mentioned website check out the section on the eight warriors. It's really great...each one of them has such a rich story of their own. |
| Richard
Parks Registered User (1/9/01 7:27:31 am) |
Re: spelling Thanks for the tip, Midori. I'll check it out. |
| allysonrosen Registered User (1/9/01 5:07:02 pm) |
Favorites Not tobe a pooper, but I'd like to steer back toward the topic originall posted. Since I don't have a favorite, I'll give a list: Creepiest: Snow White- this is SUCH a violent tale: the first image we are introduced to is the mother gazing at her life-blood dropping on the snow and naming her new-born. Not to mention a psychotically vain stepmother who wants to eat a human heart, an all-seeing mirror (1984 anyone?), and an innocent girl who is forced into indentured servitude to seven dirty old men. Plus, the whole glass-coffin thing REALLY freaks me out, because SHE WAS STILL ALIVE AND THEY PUT HER IN A COFFIN! And the Prince MUST have had a little streak of necrophilia if he saw a chick in a glass coffin and decided to make out with her... Anyway... Sexiest: Little Red Riding Hood- the ultimate virgin-being-ravished-in-the-woods by a dark-but-charming-stranger story. Growl. Feel free to argue this one: I'd love to spark controversy. Most Metaphoric to my Family Life: Rapunzel- This past winter break I was imprisoned in my overbearing mother's apartment with nothing to do but let my hair grow, and waited for my prince to call for me. Most Relevent to my School Life: The Red Shoes- Be creative! NOW! And don't stop until you drop! Most Relevent to my Love Life: Beauty and the Beast- I never know if my handsome prince will revert back to beasthood...and I love both sides of him. Makes me Cry Each Time I Hear it Told: The Little Mermaid- the REAL one. Oh, to love someone so much you are willing to trade in your fins for constant agony. Allyson |
| Catja Unregistered User (1/9/01 9:26:52 pm) |
Favorites There's so much good stuff out there, it's hard to narrow it down. Since completing my "Bluebeard" article (yay!), I've fallen in love with "Fitcher's Bird" -- so strange and dark, with a brilliant, conniving heroine. I also love "All-fur," and other similar tales -- including "Cap o' Rushes," a possible source tale for _King Lear_ (BTW, Allyson, I saw you as the Fool, and thought you were great!). Other stories, hmmm... "The Twelve Months" (I found a very nice Czech version), "The Firebird," "The Seven Ravens" ("I smell, I smell human flesh"), "East o' the Sun, West o' the Moon," and "The Black Bull of Norroway" -- I love the sad little song the heroine sings, something like "Seven long years I served for thee, The glassy hill I climbed for thee, The bloody shirt I washed for thee, Won't thou awake and turn to me?" Getting more literary, I've always liked Grendel (and the dragon); John Gardner's _Grendel_ is one of my favorites. Also, _The Odyssey_, _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, and _Le Morte d'Arthur_. I've decided that I want to live the life of Gillian Perholt in A.S. Byatt's "The Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye" -- about a folklorist who meets a real (and very sexy) genie! |
| Terri Unregistered User (1/13/01 7:34:02 am) |
favorite fairy tales First, my apologies for being off the board for so long. I've been the middle of my annual winter migration from England to Arizona, and it's been a harder shift this year than usual. Anyway, Donkeyskin (in all its variants) has always been my favorite fairy tale, with The Seven Swans as a closer runner up. Since I wrote all too extensively on why in the anthology The Armless Maiden, I won't go into that here. Another favorite is The White Deer, and I'm slowly working my way up to doing a novel based on that one. Allyson, I loved your list! |
| tlchang Registered User (1/13/01 11:13:22 am) |
absolute favorite In regards to Donkeyskin, I not too long ago read Midori Snyder's version of Tattercoats in one of Terri's anthologies. Gotta say, that was a terrific version! It is rare to read positive, believable tales of married relationships and sex. Loved it! Tara |
| Gregor9 Registered User (1/15/01 7:16:49 am) |
Bluebeard
article
Catja, I would be very interested in reading your Bluebeard article. I'm currently at work on a novel derived specifically from "Fitcher's Bird" for Terri's fairy tale series, and am in the devouring stage of researching and writing it. Would love to see what you have uncovered, if you want to share it. And congratulations on finishing it. I know that feeling. GF
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