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Kate
Unregistered User
(12/15/01 1:26:18 pm)
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The Seven Gentlemen
A friend of mine who is a "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" fan has asked me about a recently aired episode called "HUSH" which announces, at its beginning, that it is based on a fairy tale called "The Seven Gentlemen." The plot line, as she related it to me, sounds like it is a Snow White variant (seven men come to a town, take people's breath away, keeping all the breath in a box, a young beautiful woman able to speak is the way they are saved . . . a liver is eaten, and a heart, somewhere along the way . . . also, the number seven . . . ). Am I an idiot for not knowing "The Seven Gentlemen" tale? Does anyone? I'm sure I could dig out my books and find out for myself, but I'm otherwise buried in deadlines and can't for days!
Best,
Kate
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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/15/01 2:00:52 pm)
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SEven Gentlemen
Kate,
This has already been discussed on the board in March of 2001. I don't recall the end discussion, but maybe if you look in the archived section you can find something. Not being a television watcher, I just recall skimming this discussion.
Good luck with the deadlines.
Jess
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Kate
Unregistered User
(12/15/01 4:00:58 pm)
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Thanks!
Thanks, Jess, I'll dig it up. I don't remember the discussion--I wonder if I was on the board yet! I'm sure I can find it.
The deadlines will all be over by Tuesday, whether I've met them or not! (But I will.) So there is light, there is light--thanks for the support.
Did we ever correspond about Mirror, Mirror, or my novel--I seem to remember you had some comments for me, but my request for them may have gotten hidden in some other discussion, I fear. I'm sorry! They may be outdated now, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm about to deliver the revised second edition to the editor on Monday, one of my deadlines. A brand new introduction, which Terri helped me shape--so grateful for her input on that.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/15/01 5:51:52 pm)
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Mirror, Mirror
Oh Kate,
I look forward to the second edition. I had so many thoughts reading the first, but some now escape me. Still, there are several points of opinion I would like to express:
First, the book was an enjoyable and easy read (probably not in small part thanks to the editor). It brings home how important the genre of fairy tales are to all readers and also to writers. Recent discussions on this board indicate that those writers of fantasy/fairy tales are sometimes looked upon as the step-sister (black sheep) of literature. If one could pinpoint another genre that has so clearly influenced generation after generation of writers I would like to know (religious writing perhaps excepted).
Second, I liked the organization of the book by alphabetical order. This resulted in an interesting randomness in the essays which kept me interested (as opposed to a grouping of similar essays). I hope your second edition uses this method as well.
Third, my personal favorites were those discussions which did not try to moralize or analyze the stories, but which pointed out the impact of the tales on the life of the reader , i.e., the essay by Julia Alvarez or the one by Linda Gray Sexton. These essays I found touching and compelling as a reader. In contrast, I found several cold and analytical. It made me wonder what the writers were like - did their responses to the tales reflect the personalities of the writers?
Fourth, I was amazed at the number of writers who responded that the Juniper Tree was their favorite tale. I am not sure why this surprised me so, but it did. It is not the most widely recognized story and yet it has its heroine who is clearly inspirational.
Fifth, after reading the essays I went through a similar exercise. I wrote some impressions of my favorite tale as a young girl and what values I thought this tale imbued. Then I went back and reread the version of the tale, the White Cat, I had read - one found in the Blue Fairy Book, which is available on-line. I was surprised by several things, not the least of which was that my memory of the story - one that I had not read in years - was faulty. A story I thought was in part about loyalty and trust was instead full of trickery and magic potions. Interestingly, I had transformed the tale into a more chivalric one. Nonetheless, the powerful figure was female. Hmmm. I wonder what that says about me?
Well, I am sure some of these comments seem superficial at this point, and I had so many thoughts on individual essays while I was reading them. I suppose that was the point of the book in the first place.
I would love to see a similar book with essays by male writers. Also, wouldn't it be interesting to see what non-writers, but leaders in science, sports or other areas have to say about their fairy tale experiences. I wonder what happened with those Indiana Pacer basketball players who all wanted to read fairy tales for the Indianapolis library? Which tales did they pick, I wonder?
Please excuse my ramblings, but unlike many on this board I am just a reader and not all that knowledgeable. Still, I have so enjoyed this board in part because of the contributors like you and Terri who do give it the authority the rest of us are looking for.
Jess |
Terri
Registered User
(12/17/01 8:14:44 am)
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Re: Mirror, Mirror
Kate: As a fan of both Buffy and fairy tales, I have to admit that I've never run across a fairy tale called The Seven Gentlemen anywhere but on the show itself. If I recall correctly, no one else on this board has either. Either Joss Whedon and crew made the story up (borrowing various useful elements from other fairy tales) or else it's a rather obscure one. I'm inclined to think the former, since it doesn't (in the show's brief explication of it) have the feel of a traditional fairy tale...but I don't know that for sure. Much as I worship the ground Joss Whedon walks upon, there's never been any indication that anyone involved in the show has any real knowledge of fairy tales -- the various fairy tale references over the years have been pretty superficial. They're great on myth, but not on fairy tale, alas. It doesn't seem to be Whedon's frame of reference, mores the pity... (I think he needs one of us on his consultancy staff!)
Jess: I enjoyed reading your insightful comments on Kate's book,
which are not superficial at all. Regarding your favorite tale,
The White Cat -- that's a Madame D'Aulnoy story, from the salons
of 17th century Paris, and I agree that it's a wonderful one. I
believe that it was altered somewhat in Andrew Lang's retelling
however, and I highly recommend seeking out better translations.
I think both Jack Zipes and Marina Warner include it in their collections
of French salon tales. Can't remember the names of the Zipes and
Warner books off-hand (and my copies of them are in England, not
here), but if you don't have them already you can find the titles
in this article on French salon tales: www.endicott-studio.com/forconte.html.
Elizabeth Wanning Harries has a good discussion about The White
Cat in her new book "Twice Upon a Time: Women Writers and the
History of the Fairy Tale" -- including pointing out that the
scenes on the cat's castle walls include fairy tale characters from
D'Aulnoy's own previous stories. (I'm not sure whether Lang included
this detail.) Harries notes that D'Aulnoy's tale is more about the
cat herself than the prince--an educated, creative, intelligent
creature, much like D'Aulnoy herself.
Edited by: Terri at: 12/17/01 8:17:47 am
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ZMethos
Registered User
(12/17/01 8:49:31 am)
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Re: Buffy/Fairy Tales
From "Buffy: The Watcher's Guide Volume 2" under the heading of "Hush":
The Fairy Tale Connection: "Gingerbread" from Season Three and "Hush" both take their cue from fairy tales. These stories of witches, goblins, and trolls, when first told, were aimed at adults, not children. The original "Sleeping Beauty" has the princess waking up during labor--she's pregnant with twins! There is a subgenre of horror literature consisting of traditional fairy tales retold for adults. A representative sample can be found in "Snow White, Blood Red" edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling. Buffy costume designer Cynthia Bergstrom searches out old fairy tale books for their illustrations, which she uses as inspiration to clothe the many demons in the show.
Also take into account that the minister and his congregants on the street (when Willow and Buffy are walking) have Revelation 15:1 posted on their white boards:
"Then I saw another portent in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended."
I don't know if anything is intended by that, or if Joss just wanted to re-inforce the use of seven.
~M. Pepper
Edited by: ZMethos at: 12/17/01 8:53:08 am
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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/17/01 2:58:30 pm)
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Seven Gentlemen
Thanks Terri,
Yes, I seem to be investing in Zipes a lot these days. I will look for the book on the French tales. Always more to read.
Jess
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Kate
Unregistered User
(12/17/01 4:10:14 pm)
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Thanks, etc.
Jess,
I agree with Terri: your comments are hardly superficial. I really, greatly appreciate them. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such detail to the book. The reissue should be out by June, by the way.
And Terri: I went to college with Joss Whedon! I doubt he'd remember me, even though he dated my very best friend for a very long time. I was just her mousy shadow. He's incredibly smart--so I just figured, surely this is a reference to a 'real' fairy tale. I imagine you are right that it's a fabricated one. That would be in keeping with the show's sideways references.
Am I the only one who feels "The Seven Gentlemen" to be related to Snow White tales, though? I didn't find anything in the earlier discussion on this that said so . . .
I had a question for anyone--off the subject--about Zipes. Between the Norton (Tatar) critical edition and the Zipes (Oxford) one, does anyone have a preference? I happen to love the Tatar and loyally use it in my fairy tale class. I'm just curious. I do not have the Zipes, but ought to get it, I'm sure.
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Terri
Registered User
(12/18/01 6:14:34 am)
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Re: Thanks, etc.
Kate, you went to college with Joss Whedon??? Dang! He's definitely one of my heroes -- the writing on that show is so darn *smart*. I'm not even much of a television or film watcher, but he's got me good and hooked... Sure would like to meet the man. Maybe someday.
M. Pepper: Thanks for sharing that. Very cool that the costume designer, at least, is knowledgeable about fairy tales...and *extremely* cool that they cited our anthology. You've made my day!
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Kate
Unregistered User
(12/18/01 7:08:18 am)
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Well,
As I said, he wouldn't remember me, probably (though I spent hours in an off-campus house kitchen drinking red wine with him and others . . . around that time in my life, I was so shy I could barely talk, and I really mean that!). He would sit and scribble cartoons the whole time. We thought he was a genius even then.
I missed M. Pepper's post--must go back and read it! Anything that makes Terri's day will make my day too!
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Terri
Registered User
(12/18/01 3:04:59 pm)
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Re: Well,
Kate: Well, shy or not, I'm still impressed that you knew him. He truly is a genius. And, book lover that I am, I never thought I'd use that word about a television writer.... but no other word will do.
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tlchang37
Registered User
(12/20/01 11:44:26 pm)
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more on Joss...
Terri and others interested in the doings of Joss,
Here's an article on the NEXT series he's working on...
www.eonline.com/News/Item...72,00.html
I love his stuff, but hope things aren't getting stretched so completely thin that they all suffer...
Tara
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Terri
Registered User
(12/21/01 5:55:39 am)
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Re: more on Joss...
Yes, I'd heard about the new series. And I think he's *already* spread too thin. I can understand why the guy wants to move on to new territory, but I admit I wish he'd *complete* Buffy, bring it to a satisfying conclusion, before moving on and leaving it in the hands of his colleagues. The show is suffering without him -- without his uncanny ability to balance light and dark elements in perfect proportions (and also without a highschool/college setting to give them real lives and daily contact with real people beyond monster slaying). It's getting just a bit soap-opera-ish, with them fighting each other instead of banding together against the world and the metaphorical demons one fights as one grows into young adulthood. Geller's contract apparently is for 7 years, which is one season beyond this one. In a perfect world, Joss W. would stick with the show for all seven years, and bring it to a rousing conclusion -- after which his colleagues could spin off a future show or shows with his lesser participation. Yeah, I realize television doesn't usually work that way...that they'll want to keep pumping out the "product" of Geller as Buffy for as long as the actress wants to play her and for as long as people watch, even if the story deteriorates in the process because its creator has grown bored and turned his attention to other things. But the show has been so novelistic (which is what got me hooked in the first place) that I really wish that Joss W. would stick with it and bring it to a rousing, satisfying close, like a good novel. I want it to be art (which at it's best it has been), not product, darn it! Joss W. has shown us just how good television writing can be...and then walked away with the novel only two thirds done. If Dickens had done the equivalent, his novels would not still be in print today.
Just my two cents, of course.
Edited by: Terri at: 12/21/01 6:12:12 am
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ZMethos
Registered User
(12/21/01 10:19:59 am)
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Re: more on Joss...
I'll agree with you there, Terri. The show seems to be stumbling this season, lacking the direction Joss has always been there to give it. If we had one decent nemesis maybe. . . But it has moved toward the Aaron Spelling-style drama of "now we're fighting amongst ourselves and getting all teary-eyed and angsty." Just makes me want to shake someone and say, "Snap out of it!"
Of course, for me, it doesn't help that Giles has gone. He was my favorite character. I hope we do get to see the new series.
In the meantime, as you say--I'd like to see Buffy come to a solid finale of sorts, as opposed to watching it decay slowly into something unrecognizable.
~M. Pepper
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