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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/21/01 8:02:46 am)
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Disney - influences
Hi!
Since my earlier comments on Disney have triggered discussion of Disney in several topics, I thought maybe we could consolidate them here more readily. The two areas of discussion seem to be: did Disney influence your interest in fairy tales and does Disney cause an ("immoral"?) imprint of a fairy tale on the viewers? With this there also seems to be an issue regarding the mass marketing of Disney fairy tale characters and that influence. More comments?
I would like to add that I see a real difference between Snow White and some of the other fairy tales Disney animated (with the possible exception of the little mermaid). In my opinion, Disney's Snow White was such a powerful piece of art that it has become in a sense a cultural icon becoming "the" Snow White. There is something that differentiates this work from later Disney fairy tale renditions, that while pleasant enough, lack the impact of Snow White. None of the others, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin (I am not sure about Little Mermaid), can boast this same level of impact. I believe this movie is something of a Gesamtkunstwerk, in which all artistic elements were skillfully combined to form the masterwork - albeit a masterwork of its period (hence the pabulum treatment of the fairy tale and the Renaissance come 1930's character design). Your thoughts?
Jess
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Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(12/21/01 9:27:34 am)
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On Disney...
I just made a long comment on the Disney films in my previous post on illustration.
Thanks,
Charles
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Karen
Unregistered User
(12/21/01 3:16:43 pm)
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Snow White
Jess,
Wasn't Snow White the first animated feature Disney made? I agree with you that it is very different, especially when compared with some of the more recent (1980s and later) fare- do you think this might have something to do with the fact that it was made so early in his career, before the Disney corporation as such existed? I remember a very interesting documentary I saw about this, but sadly the name eludes me. THey spoke to a lot of people who worked on Snow White, a lot of artists who were mortified to see their names deleted from the final credits. The general thesis was that WD had undergone something of an ideological shift in between the making of the film and its broad release.
Yesterday, I was in the Sydney CBD (downtown area) and I walked past the windows of David Jones, a department store- each window decked out with a scene from a particular Disney flick. The centrepiece was The Little Mermaid- they claimed that this was the most enduring Disney heroine, mostly on the grounds that she has flogged so much merchandise. Also, of some amusement, was the Beauty and the Beast window. There was a bit of text next to each window telling you how Disney had transformed the tale in question. This window asserted that Disney had changed the always passive Beauty into a strong role model by giving her expressive eyes and a mobile face! So if you look outraged or aggrieved enough you cease to be oppressed....
k.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/21/01 6:26:21 pm)
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Little Mermaid - Snow White
Karen,
Yes, Snow White was the first feature length animated movie, but I think that has less to do with it than the artistic aspects of the movie. I remember even as a child noticing that there was less outline and more use of natural shadowing and color in the characters of this movie than others. The attention to detail seems far greater than in other Disney films (although I have heard that Sleeping Beauty was full of detail, the screen play is so weak it lacks the impact). Character development and drama (as well as comic relief) seem much better in Snow White than others and I believe the music more effectively furthers the dramatic experience than others (down to Snow White's annoyingly immature coloratura voice).
I have heard similar comments regarding Little Mermaid. While the script clearly veers from the traditional tales of the Little Mermaid (I am most familiar with Andersen's version), the music and the balance between drama and comedy is at a high level. Again, I object to the dumbing down by Disney of fairy tales. I would like to add though that the music of the Little Mermaid does an excellent job of advancing the plot, something lacking in earlier Disney musicals, and the lyrics are witty. So for me at least, this movie is more a gem because of its music than its animation. While the animation of Little Mermaid does not approach the art of Snow White, it was a great advancement from those horridly animated movies of the 60's and 70's.
My own personal favorite of the new Disney movies is Beauty and the Beast but it is mostly because of the superb music - the script leaves both the Beast and Beauty as not all that interesting of characters.
Charles,
I guess you passed my test. Sorry those dwarfs keep popping into your head. I would love to see your comic version. Is it available or op?
Jess
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(12/22/01 10:28:35 am)
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Strong Beauty, Stronger Beast?
I want to reiterate something I have said before whenever Disney's B&B comes up. My daughter, who has couseled battered women, had the MOST awful reaction at seeing B&B with her young daughter. She decried it as a primer for girls growing up to be battered spouses.
The earlier version seem to me to have stronger young women and less beastly beasts. (At least he has excellent manners, and a hatred of his own beastly characteristics.)
Jane
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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/22/01 3:55:28 pm)
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b&b
Jane,
I recall your earlier comment regarding this. Have either one of you written anything about this? I think that as a parent, I have an obligation either to counter this impression or at the very least point out the negatives to my young boys that this type of behavior is wholly unacceptable and why.
I object to Beauty as a passive traditionalist (oh yeah, here is the "at home mom" saying this). But if she really wanted something more than a "provential life" she should have been more proactive in the family business (read independent), rather than let circumstances overtake her. Disney has made rather inadequate attempts to "modernize" the female characters in the new movies without really understanding the underpinnings of femminism. Ironically, in these attempts the females often are weaker than their traditional fairytale counterparts.
Jess
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(12/23/01 7:03:27 am)
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Mirror Mirror
Yes I have written more (and so has my daughter) in our book MIRROR, MIRROR: 40 Folktales for Mothers and Daughters to Share. (Viking/Penguiin.)
Jane
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(12/23/01 1:50:22 pm)
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Re: Mirror Mirror
Jane and her daughter, Heidi (but not me!), do discuss the Disney version of Beauty and the Beast in their "Mirror, Mirror." I remember reading that particular passage and nodding my head in agreement. More discussion of Beauty and the Beast will probably occur in the coming weeks since it is being rereleased on January 1 with some additional scenes, so I'll go ahead and share my two cents here.
I have always been torn between liking and hating the Disney version. Long term posters know that Beauty and the Beast is my favorite fairy tale--if I had to choose one--and I eagerly anticipated the release of the movie back in my undergrad college days. I remember sneaking off to the theatre to watch it alone on opening day, shortly before Thanksgiving in 1991. I loved the music since one of my guilty pleasures is watching musicals, be they good or bad. I liked all of the elements of the Disney tale that reminded me of my beloved and tattered copy of Robin McKinley's "Beauty." The library was wonderful. The animation was stunning at the time. The humor was wonderful in many places. ("No, no, no, I have been burned by you before!")
I even managed to not detest the invention of Gaston although I hated Disney's need for a stereotypical villain. Most of all, I was disturbed by the Beast's behavior. In my favorite versions of B&B, the Beast is a kind creature, only a monster on the outside and perhaps a little to Beauty's father. In the movie, he is a BEAST. He is the classic abusive spouse character. He is mean, full of temper and even violent. Sure he NEVER hits her, but don't you get the feeling he is on the brink several times? Belle doesn't only have to transform his physical appearance by loving him, she has to transform him from a psychological beast. It is disturbing. He rants, he roars, he smashes things and then he is gentle when it suits him. He is ultimately tamed and humbled because she is "good enough" to him. The Beast lets his temper roar and then apologizes by giving gifts and being nice, for a time. The movie consequently encourages the false notion that a woman can tame her mate if only she is good enough, beautiful enough, and patient enough. It also implies that the good times are worth enduring the atrocious behavior. Gifts and flowers will solve any problem--bribe your mate into forgiving you.
I had a roommate at the time who was in the same kind of relationship with a man named Leo (how fitting). Fortunately, she wised up but most of the "girls" in my circle of friends were delusional enough to think he--or any abusive man--would change if the right woman could just love him enough to change him. Aaaargghhh!
The one thing that has always flabbergasted me about the Disney movie is why Beast was made so beastly. With the invention of Gaston, there wasn't really the need for yet another male character with extremely bad character flaws. Gaston is a classic villain and a foil. In addition, the classic versions of the story imply the beast has been humbled over time since the curse was placed upon him and is simply looking for a way to end the curse by the time Beauty arrives. Beauty's arrival is timely because he is no longer a beast within himself. Time and the curse have humbled and tamed him, not a woman's love. Once again, the older tales have more realistic meaning than the modern, overly romanticized versions that teach that a woman's unconditionaly love and beauty is enough to make any man change on his own.
And after all of that, I still enjoy watching the movie on many levels, so please don't feel apologetic if you enjoy it too. It really is a strong musical despite its philosophical flaws which it shares with half of the movies I have seen in my life. This one just happened to hit closer to home thanks to its timing in my life and the story upon which it is loosely based.
Heidi
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Carrie
Unregistered User
(12/24/01 6:42:03 pm)
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Beastly natures
Heidi,
I loved your comments, which inspired me to post my own. I was married for 6 years (ages 17 to 23) to an abusive man. (I almost scoff at the politeness of such a simple word as "abusive.") A beast is a beast. Neither animals nor men change. People don't change. Beasts don't transform into Princes. They remain beasts regardless of their beauty or station or whatever it is they are supposed to have "become." (This reminds me of Cory-Ellen's poem.) But what this particular fairy tale fails to address is that beasts are not only male in gender. Women can be just as abusive. It may not be as visible, but it does occur -- with the men in their lives, thier families, children, etc. I know I'd like to say that it's only men that are monsters, but it just wouldn't be true. Women have just as great of a capacity -- even in domestic relationships.
Which leads me to wonder as to why is it that there are more male mosters in the fairy tale realm than those that are female? I'm aware that there are plenty of "bad" women characters, but they are usually wearing the crone's robes. I enjoy the femme fatales -- Lilith, Salome, Medusa, Medea, Liegia, La Llorana, Nadja...
Now that I think of it, the Beast has hints of sexuality. I feel like I'm stuck in the Industrial Revolution. Haven't we stop equating sexuality with evil yet? There has to be other things, deeper things to grapple with.
Carrie
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(12/25/01 9:46:45 am)
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bad girls
Carrie wrote: "Which leads me to wonder as to why is it that there are more male mosters in the fairy tale realm than those that are female? I'm aware that there are plenty of "bad" women characters, but they are usually wearing the crone's robes. I enjoy the femme fatales -- Lilith, Salome, Medusa, Medea, Liegia, La Llorana, Nadja...
No, no--there are many BAD GIRLS stories. See my MIRROR, MIRROR: 40 Stories for Mothers and Daughters to Share. We have a whole section on Good Girls and Bad, plus there are a number of bad mother stories.
Jane
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Laura
Registered User
(12/27/01 2:08:59 pm)
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weighing in
I've held back from contributing to the discussion of Disney's Beauty, but now feel compelled to chime in.
I was devastated when the Little Mermaid didn't die -- outraged that she got the prince. That isn't how the story goes! :-) Even being the target age group as I was, I was too firmly entrenched in beliefs of authorial supremacy to budge from that. Still, as others have said, the music and visuals compensated. A spunky redhead! So much more suited to my taste than Andersen's pale, suffering waif, though I missed the dancing on knives and the bloody feet. Actually, as the years go by, I am bothered by both versions -- Andersen's mainly for its Christian and anti-feminist themes of suffering in silence, hoping someone will somehow notice. Perhaps I just prefer questing for love rather than obsessing about souls and the afterlife.
Anyway, by the time B&B came along, I had grown a bit. Still young enough to be entranced though -- here was a heroine just like me! Brunette, a reader lost in books and taunted for it. Again, superb music and visuals.
For me, Belle was a touchstone. Smart and well-dressed, she never took any guff. When the beast yelled, she yelled back. When he ordered her around, she ignored him. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but this is how I saw the film as a young girl, and it's the impression that remains with me and others I know. At the same time, she took pains to understand him. Rather than dismiss him as a brute, she wanted to know _why_ he was as he was. I actually find this take on him to be a bit more psychologically compelling, and rather more cinematic, than other versions. If all his character development is done before we get there, that's boring for an audience. Basic rule of filmmaking. Besides, this way, she takes an active role in helping shape him.
The Beast acts out of frustration at being trapped in an alien form. Not only that, but in this tale, he has dragged all his household along with him. Can you imagine the burden of guilt he must carry, especially as they continue to help him, rather than hate him? Furthermore, he knows time is running out. He feels trapped, doomed. Stereotypically, men turn pain into anger, and as objectionable as platitudes like that can be, they tend to exist for a reason.
I would never want to belittle the experiences of those who see the battered spouse parallel because of their own backgrounds. I'm just not sure it's so one-sided. She does not quietly accept his behavior. When she feels the need to, she leaves. She chastizes him, and he makes genuine efforts to change. Not pacify her, to CHANGE. We see that happen. Of course one doesn't want to encourage battered spouses to tolerate their treatment. At the same time, neither do we want to tell people to take off at the first sign of trouble! All "mates," especially young ones, take some shaping from their partners. Can anyone here attest otherwise? It's that attempt to share in and understand one another that seems to me a better portrait of a relationship that many Disney has shown. Neither party does all the accomodating. People may not "change" in the huge ways, but they assuredly can learn, grow, and shift.
I will likely be hung out to dry, and I apologize if I've offended anyone. Still, I really am curious to hear your takes on this view of B&B. For me, though imperfect, it was an immensely positive experience, still filled with relevance and meaning for my current situation.
Laura
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Jess
Unregistered User
(12/27/01 4:07:50 pm)
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Beauty and the Beast
Laura,
As Terri seems to remind me constantly, no opinion is an invalid one - so don't expect to be lambasted by us for yours. I do think that it is interesting to see what the various posts have said about this movie. As I said earlier it is my favorite of the new Disney fairy tales, but as a character, I would have preferred Beauty to have ridden home and formed her own army, ala Joan of Arc, and rescued her father from the rude, contemptous beast, perhaps using some new weapon that she invented. Now, that would have been proactive.
As for her tempering the Beast, hmm, I wonder. We only have a breif glimpse into their future.
Jess
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