| Author |
Comment |
Kerrie
Registered User
(8/29/00 1:48:39 pm)
|
Brute passivity...
I don't know if anyone has thought this, but the other night, as I was thinking about shapeshifters, I started thinking about all of the characters who's form was changed as part of a curse- most of which were the male characters due to an injustice or something. Then I started thinking about how in the tales of rescue, the women are in need of rescue from lives of passivity, while the men are in need of rescue from their brute natures (need to save the bad boy sounds familiar!). Is this much to talk about?
|
Carrie
Registered User
(8/30/00 8:46:19 am)
|
Re: Brute passivity...
I hadn't really thought about it, but I would have to agree on the common themes. It is interesting if you think that the women transform internally as characters and authors show men as changed by physical features. I wonder if this has anything to do with the mentality that men lack a certain sensitivity. So if older tales show these themes do we find them as well in more current stories? Are they so ingrained in our perceptions that resididuals lurk in modern storytellers works? I'm glad you brought it up. It's something to look for.
|
Kerrie
Registered User
(8/30/00 5:45:20 pm)
|
Re: Brute passivity...
Well, the men also, in the end, change internally- more generous, less egotistical, more caring. But it takes someone- usually 2 women- to say 1) (before the transformation) "Hey, you're not all you thought you were." and 2) (after) "You're more than you think you are." If you think about it, the men usually go through the grieving stages almost (denial, anger, self-pity, bargaining, acceptance- I can't remember all of them) while the women seem to have pure acceptance of their fate, almost happily. In the romance novels I review, I notice the male theme more than the female theme, but they are both ever present. I'll have to think about specific titles over the next few days!
|
Kerrie
Registered User
(9/9/00 9:56:25 am)
|
Transformation...
Ok, I think I'm starting to contradict myself, but here goes...
I recently noticed in my gender biasing, that it's quite frequent that the women undergo a physical transformation as well in some tales (many minor, but still a difference is noted). The largest occurrence is in the Cinderella tales and the variants- Donkeyskin, Tattercoat, Sapsorrow- plain or ugly (by nature or design), she's transformed into a beautiful princess. Next is the Little Mermaid, or Ondine, transforms from mermaid to human, though must lose her voice (there's that passivity), then instead of regaining her voice, dies and becomes the foam carried by the waves. The swan ladies and princess in Swan Lake are another group who physically transform under a curse as the men do in other tales. And then there's the beautiful Last Unicorn, who's transformed into a beautiful human to some, an ugly, dying cage of a human body to her, returning in the end and rejoining the others who were transformed into the foam of the sea and are set free.
This now throws my theory off. Any input?
| Terri
Unregistered User
(9/9/00 5:27:09 pm)
|
Transformations...
"Transformation" is a major theme in fairy tales overall -- generally a transformation from a "maimed" state (maimed by society through lack of prospects, ala Puss in Boots, or by poverty/hunger ala Hansel and Gretel; or maimed by sexual or domestic trauma ala Donkeyskin, the Armless Maiden, Cinderella; or maimed externally ala the Beast in Beauty and the Beast, the swan-brothers in Seven Swans, or the enchanted maidens turned into ugly monsters in various tales; or maimed internally ala Kay in The Snow Queen) into a state of wholeness, completion, and integration into society (often, but not always, symbolized by marriage.) There are certainly tales in which the male animal nature has to be tamed (Beauty and the Beast being the most famous one), but then there are also tales in which a man tries to tame a female's animal nature, such as the Selchie bride and cat bride tales....and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't.
Where I see a gender difference is that often the helpful figure necessary to a successful transformation -- the good fairy or old woman by the side of the road -- is female. I think perhaps this reflects that these tales, in the oral tradition, were largely passed down by women...and the good fairy, as Marina Warner has pointed out, can be read as standing in for the storyteller herself. Certainly in the French fairy tales written by women in the 17th and 18th centuries (D'Aulnoy, de Murat, de Villeneuve, etc.), the sisterhood of good faeries seems to deliberately resemble the community of aristocratic women who were telling the tales. (I've just written an article about this, so it's fresh in my mind at the moment. We'll post in on the Endicott site in a few weeks.)
These are all just thoughts off the top of my head though, so I may be off-base with this....
| Midori
Unregistered User
(9/10/00 3:39:32 am)
|
Helpers
Terri,
I agree mostly with you but ont he gender of helpers, I'd offer a few examples of famous males. Such as Iron John--the servant who scarifices himself to assist the young hero, Enkidu, the paired fantastic helper to Gilgamesh which brings him to his kingship, the Black Horse in the celtic tale who is really the brides brother transformed who assists the hero to liberating his sister and ultimately himself as well, and what about those narratives wehre the hero (usually an uassuming sort of guy) meets up with a party of fantastic male travellers--guys that each have a specific cool talent that he lends to the hero?
But...and here is my qualifier...I would argue that there are both genders strongly represented in the role of helper...but that the choice of gender might well depend on what aspect of the journey the hero/heroine needs to fulfill for their adult role. So for instance, Mwindo in the Mwindo epic is assisted by his Aunt against the destructive forces of his father--because in order to fulfill his role as a culture hero for his people he *must* acquire the creative power that is represented by the femine force in the world against the aggressive destructive forces of his father--he must be within himself a balance between them. On the other hand, the unassuming hero needs powerful allies to make up for his lack of resources in other narratives and the male fantastic presence gives him I think a better balance to do battle against evil kings, nasty scorcerer fathers or rivals...a man's world in which the lack of material power is balanced by the gift of fantastic power. So let me think...do we find the reverse? Can you think of heroine tales where it is necessary for the young woman to rely on the assistence of a fantastic male figure? (Rumplestilskin perhaps--though he becomes a competitor for the human husband)...and then of course is there something about the gender specific nature of Rumplestilskin that makes it work? (could it be as easily an ambiguous fairy godmother, a baba yaga...or did Rumplestilkin for the emotional logic of the tale *have* to be male?)
| Terri
Unregistered User
(9/11/00 12:18:49 am)
|
random thoughts
...hmmm, no, thus far I can't think of fairy tales where a female protagonist relies on the fantastic advice of a male helper, except for Rumplestiltskin....but perhaps someone else here can?
Midori, most of the examples you've offered for male helpers seem to come from epic Romances (Iron John excepted), Gilgamesh etc., and not folk tales. The difference being that the epic tradition, formally written down, was a largely male tradition, while European oral folk tales, considered trivial by comparison, were largely passed on by women -- usually peasant women, or other low-status groups like the Gypsies. (Except in Ireland, where there was a strong tradition of men telling folk tales, so it's interesting that your other example is a Celtic tale. ) I wonder if we'd find more helpful magical men if we looked at gypsy folk tales....
| Terri
Unregistered User
(9/11/00 12:22:46 am)
|
P.S.
...mind you, that's just western Europe, and you're looking at tale motifs more globally, so what I've just said, on second thought, probably doesn't really apply.
| Allie
Unregistered User
(9/11/00 4:14:46 am)
|
helpers
What about Kari Woodencoat and her bull?
| |
