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| Author | Comment |
| Terri Unregistered User (7/7/00 11:58:20 pm) |
French
folklore
Folks: I've finally finished writing Wendy Froud's new faery story (The Winter Child), and am now off to join Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman in Paris for some much needed r-&-r. (There's nothing like sitting in a good Parisian cafe with a glass of wine in hand, watching the world go by, to restore one's creativity. Kerrie, did we mention that one in your list of inspiration techniques?!) I'm sorry I've been such a small presence on this board while I was finishing the book. I'll be back at my desk in Devon sometime around the 20th of July, and look forward in joining all these intriguing discussions then! I'll probably use the trip to France as an excuse to do a "Folkroots" column about French folklore. Any thoughts on the subject, anyone? Cheers, T. |
| Carolyn Unregistered User (7/10/00 11:26:12 pm) |
Tales
from Bordeaux
Hi everyone...how I've missed the discussions but am happily getting caught up. Terri, could you check on (or perhaps Karen knows this answer as well) are there any traditional fairy tales we've come to know and love that spring out of the Bordeaux region? Seems quite a storytelling tradition in that area, and I'd be curious to find out what has come from that area. Cheers all, Carolyn |
| Kerrie Registered User (7/11/00 8:45:10 am) |
Re:
French folklore
Well, sounds like a lot of fun! Sadly, the day is past when I spoke of inspiration to the wee ones, but I will definitely keep it in mind for the future! (I hope I get more chances to do workshops with kids- "YA"/teens would be great! Cograts on finishing the story! I look forward to reading it very much! (Provided my contract is kept in August and I can buy it, but there are always those nice comfy chairs or the floor at the bookstores or library! I WILL buy it as soon as I can though or at least ask for it as a gift- sigh, my poor wallet is shrinking- aiyyaie!) I'll have to think about the French folklore- but enough of my endless rambling for now! |
| Lizzi Unregistered User (7/11/00 12:09:14 pm) |
French
folklore
Dear Terri I'd love to hear any animal folklore tales that you may dig up, if you please. Also, anything on plant/tree folklore too (literally dig up )) Have a lovely time! |
| Kerrie Registered User (7/28/00 3:00:58 am) |
Re:
French folklore
Terri, Just wondering if you were back from Paris yet and if you were still thinking of writing about French folklore for your next article? I've been diving and digging and found a few things that I want to explore more before I post them (I don't know much about French folklore, but I'm learning more through this search- especially how picky you have to be with the Internet!) Let us know! Still sleeping, Kerrie |
| Terri Unregistered User (7/30/00 11:35:47 pm) |
French
folklore
Hi, folks; I'm finally back after all my travels. Paris was wonderful, very inspiring...and it was good to get out from behind the desk for awhile. Carolyn, I haven't run across stories specific to the Bordeaux region yet, but I'm still doing research for my French folklore article so I'll keep an eye out. (Any specific reason for asking...?) Lizzi, have you read the legends of Fontaine? Kerrie, yes, I'd love to know anything you've discovered about French folklore. (Excluding Breton material, which I covered in a separate article.) I met Pierre Dubois, who is one of their leading popular authorities on folk and faery lore, at a dinner party in Paris. It was a delight to meet him -- he's very nice, a great story-teller, and a bit larger than life. His work falls on the spectrum somewhere smack between Katherine Briggs and Brian Froud -- part scholar, part popularizer in other words. (He has one book published in English, which I recommend: The Great Encyclopedia of Faeries.) Unfortunately my French is minimal -- I can understand it better than I can speak it. And he has no English. We managed to talk through a very kind translator and had a good conversation...but a limited one, and I regret missing out on the chance to really pick his brain. Heidi: I asked Pierre and the other folks at this party (all French publishing people) if they knew anything about Adrienne Segur, and alas, they knew only what we know already, that she was an illustrator popular there in the 1950s. Pierre has an old copy of a Nutcracker illustrated by her that he has promised to loan to me...can't wait to see it. |
| Kerrie Registered User (7/31/00 1:38:17 pm) |
It's
just a start...
but these are some sites I found with links of folktales to other cultures, which may help: www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html (each of the following is also listed with tales from other countries in the same category- probably good for linking the French culture with others!) Mother and child. Every Mother Thinks Her Child Is the Most Beautiful, folktales of type 247. www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0247.html 3.The Eagle and the Owl (France). Beauty and the Beast. Folktales of type 425C. www.pitt.edu/~dash/beauty.html 1.Beauty and the Beast (France, Jeanne-Marie LePrince de Beaumont). 2.Beauty and the Beast (Reconstructed from various European sources by Joseph Jacobs). 11.Beauty and the Beast (France, Gabrielle-Suzanne Barbot, Dame de Villeneuve). Bluebeard. Folktales of types 312 and 312A about women whose brothers rescue them from their ruthless husbands or abductors. www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0312.html 1.Bluebeard (France, Charles Perrault). Cinderella. Aarne-Thompson folktale type 510A and related stories of persecuted heroines. www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html 1.The Cinder Maid (reconstructed from various European sources by Joseph Jacobs). 2.Cinderella; or, The Little Glass Slipper (France, Charles Perrault). The Faithful Wife Who Rescued Her Husband from Slavery. Folktales of type 888. www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0888.html 1.The Man Hitched to a Plow (France/Germany). The Fox, the Wolf, and the Horse and other fables of type 47E. www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0047e.html 1.The Fox, the Wolf, and the Horse (France, Jean de La Fontaine). Melusina. Legends about mermaids, water sprites, and forest nymphs and their sensuous relationships with mortal men. www.pitt.edu/~dash/melusina.html 1.Melusina (France). pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/myth.html (This is from Myths and Legends- some portions of this section have links, as well-ex. Song of Rowland) Frankish, French and Carolingian The Matter of France begins with The Song of Roland, here translated by Charles Scott Mancrief. By the early renaissance, the Italians had picked up the story of Charlemagne's peers. Matteo Maria Boiardo's Orlando Innamorato, i.e. Orlando in Love, was first published in 1482 or 1483. This copy is only partially translated. Boiardo left the story unfinished at his death, so Ludovico Ariosto continued the story in Orlando Furioso, i.e. Orlando, Mad. see also the Breton section. pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren...html#frank If you want to get into Arthurian legend, there's Mallory: Caxton divided the text into twenty-one books, although the manuscript version makes it clear that Malory originally broke his work into eight books or "tales". The tales and their primary sources are: The first tale, of the birth and crowning of Arthur, from the French Prose Merlin The second tale, of the invasion of France and Rome, from the English Alliterative Morte Arthure The third tale, mostly concerning Lancelot, from the French prose Lancelot The fourth tale, of Gawain's brother Gareth, based on a lost English poem The fifth tale, of Tristram and Isolde, based on the French Prose Tristan The sixth tale, of the coming of the Grail, based on the French Quest de Saint Graal The seventh tale, of the romance of Lancelot and Guenivere, based mostly on the French Mort Artu and the English Stanzaic Le Morte Arthur The eighth tale, of the discovery of Lancelot and Guenivere's adultery, and the battle between Mordred and Arthur, also from the French Mort Artu and the English Stanzaic Le Morte Arthur (there are some links n this page as well) www.legends.dm.net/kingar...alory.html and of course there's the whole Lancelot legend. Does this help at all? Work was crazy today and my dearest love (a computer science major) has finals and despeartely needs computer time, so I can look more later if I can be of any more help- just let me know! Kerrie www.legends.dm.net/kingar...alory.html |
| Terri Unregistered User (8/1/00 12:08:11 am) |
thank
you
Thanks, Kerrie; that's very helpful. I'm going to go look up those sites now. There's so *much* material on French folklore that I'm going to focus on the literary fairy tales of the French court salons and the older oral folk tales that they drew upon, leaving aside Arthurian legends and epic Romances, which would need a whole article of their own to do them justice. |
| Ellen Unregistered User (8/1/00 6:37:14 am) |
Sites
Hi, Kerri: Thanks for your posting. I just checked out the Melusine site, which is part of a much more extensive site by a D.L. Ashliman, out of the U. of Pittsburgh, where he seems to have a huge collection of folklore on line. Does anyone know who Ashliman is? E. |
| Lizzi Unregistered User (8/1/00 10:31:54 am) |
Re:
Fontaine
Dear Terri No I have not read the legends of Fontaine. Please could you elaborate a little more. Kind regards Lizzi PS Kerrie - thanks for the links |
| Terri Unregistered User (8/1/00 11:28:59 pm) |
Jean
de le Fontaine
Lizzie: Jean de le Fontaine was a 17th century writer of popular tales and fables. His fables in particular are considered classics, and many if not most involve animals. They are not hard to find -- there are always a few illustrated editions of these in print. (Amazon U.S. lists two editions; I don't know about Amazon U.K.) If you want French animal stories, these are a delight. Cheers, Terri |
| Kerrie Registered User (8/2/00 6:54:08 am) |
You're
welcome... and more sites
You are all most welcome- I love researching! Wish I could make a living out of it, but I guess everyone has to start somewhere and photocopying *is* an honorable profession! Well, I looked around a bit more yesterday with your prompt of "+literary +fairy +tales +French +court +salons" on Altavista. Here are some sites I found through this search: iabramson.web.wesleyan.edu/salons.htm cblock.web.wesleyan.edu/project.html mennis.web.wesleyan.edu/f...urces.html www.fas.harvard.edu/~folkmyth/index.html www.aitech.ac.jp/~iteslj/...Tales.html www.britannica.com/bcom/e...18,00.html Hope these can be of some help as well! Some have extensive bibliographies that may be more helpful than the article. Now, you also mentioned oral traditions, are there any more key terms you're looking for that may help in that search? A province, time frame, author, tale, etc? Let me know! Kerrie |
| Kerrie Registered User (8/2/00 8:59:20 am) |
Ashliman
I'm not sure who he is, but if you follow his link to the Unitversity of Pittsburg (where he just retired from) and type "Ashliman" in the search box, it lists several sites that mention his name (of course, many of them look like they link back to his home page, but may be easier to search with another key term for a specific topic). Enjoy! Kerrie |
| Heidi Unregistered User (8/3/00 12:00:36 pm) |
Ashliman
D. L. Ashliman is a German professor and his site is one of the best on the web. It is certainly the best resource for a wide range of stories. He has published a reference book based on the Aarne-Thompson classification system--Guide to Folklore in the English Language (or something really close to that). The book is a great place to start, and much easier to use than the AT books, when looking for themes in folklore. The catch (whether this is a pro or con depends on your specific needs) is that the book lists tales that have been published by respected scholars in the English language (whether as translations or from English sources). Now I will return to unpacking... Heidi |
| Terri Unregistered User (8/8/00 12:39:13 am) |
a
book recommendation and a question
In my research for the french folklore article, I've come across a very interesting book to recommend to you all: Out of the Woods: The Origins of the Literary Fairy Tale in Italy and France, edited by Nancy L. Canepa. It's a collection of essays drawn from a conference held on the topic at Dartmouth College in 1995. and it's quite good. Can anyone here think of adult or children's fantasy novels (or story collections) that make use of French folklore? The ones that immediately spring to mind are Delia Sherman's The Porcelain Dove, Dorothy Dreams by Suzy McKee Charnas, Provencal Tales by Michael de Larrabeiti, and Chocolat by Joanne...Harris, I think is the last name. And some of the tales by A.S. Byatt and Sylvia Townsend Warner. Others? |
| Kerrie Registered User (8/8/00 1:10:05 pm) |
Re:
a book recommendation and a question
Hmmm, well it all depends on what you mean by "make use of French folklore"- whether you mean the latest versions of the old tales (many which belong to other cultures as well) or tales specific to the region only. Let me know and I'll dig! |
| Kerrie Registered User (8/8/00 1:11:38 pm) |
PS
Would you also be interested in the legend surrounding Joan of Arc, or is that another article altogether? |
| Kate Registered User (8/8/00 1:37:20 pm) |
French
Tales
Terri, You may be interested in "Pig Tales" (I think that's the title, a novella by Marie Darrieusscq, translated into English in 1997), which is about a beautician who realizes she is slowly transforming into a pig. I am positive this is based on a folk tale but I can't think of which one. The book was wildly successful in France, far less so here. Are you asking about current fiction only? Kate |
| Terri Unregistered User (8/9/00 12:12:21 am) |
book
recommendations
Kate: Thanks. The Darrieusscq book sounds vaguely familiar...I'll go look it up now. Sounds great. And no, the books needn't be current. Kerrie: I love Joan persoally, but yeah -- she's a column topic all on her own. |
| Ellen Unregistered User (8/12/00 9:37:46 am) |
Ashliman
Heidi: A very belated thank you for your answer on Ashliman. What a terrific resource! And I will look for his book. (That sounded very Dr. Suess-like.) Cheers, E. |
| Heidi Unregistered User (8/17/00 9:48:06 am) |
Ashliman
and Canepa
Ellen, I hope you are able to find
a copy of the book. The libraries I visit are inconsistent in carrying
the book despite its usefulness. The bibliography was invaluable to
me when I first started the research for my website.
|
| Midori Unregistered User (8/17/00 4:52:14 pm) | Canepa
Terri, I've been dying to get my hands on the Canepa book (two of them actually) but someone at the university and it must be a professor has it out indefinately!!! Aaargh. I think I am going to scronge through the French and Italian departments and see if I can find it. I'll let you know what I think as soon as I can. (I may try interlibrary loan and go off campus...)
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| Terri
Unregistered User (8/18/00 6:40:46 am) | French
folklore
Well, I ended up being so innudated with material on French folklore (such a broad subject to tackle! was I out of my mind?) that I've narrowed it down and narrowed it down and have finally ended up with an article specifically about the fairy tale writers in the women's salons of 17th and 18th century Paris. This was the part I was interested in the most, and it ran away with the article.... None of what I've written will be startling new to you folks here -- it's pretty much a recap of things Jack Zipes, Marina Warner, Nancy Canepa and Lewis Seifert have all said about the subject before. But it's nice to have the opportunity to let readers of Realms of Fantasy know that there's a heck of a lot more to the French fairy tale movement than the work ol' Charles Perrault. (Every time I read some ignorant reference volume refer to "Charles Perrault and his female imitators" I do a slow burn of impotent fury....D'Aulnoy imitate Perrault???? Only if he had a time travel machine.)
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| Kerrie Registered User (8/18/00 8:01:32 am) | Ignorant
Readers Annonymous
I have to admit, until I came to this board and began reading all of the posts, site recommendations, and doing resaerch for questions posted, I was very much an ingorant fairy tale reader- as far as I knew, Perrault, Anderson, and the Grimms were the only fairy tale authors I classified the stories under. Stories before or after them (including modern stories) just seemed to fall into the cracks or other categories (of which I am now cringing at when I hear their mention- too many labels!). I'm so glad this board exists to enlighten and allow us all to communicate easier!
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| Terri Unregistered User (8/18/00 11:14:28 pm) | French
fairy tales
Kerrie, I forgot to say thank you again for all the web site recommendations. There's a really nice little site you recommended that gives a good overview of 17th century French fairy tales. It looks like it may have been created for a class project: iabramson.web.wesleyan.edu/salons.htm Midori, the Canepa book is a collection of academic papers on the subject rather than a complete overview of the subject (the best sources for that are still the introductions to Jack Zipes's "Beauties, Beasts and Enchantments" and Marina Warner's "Wonder Tales" ), and some of the essays are better than others, but I liked the book. Canepa's intro is particularly good, and Elizabeth Harries's essay on canon formation, and Zipes's sprightly essay on cats in fairy tales -- one of the most whimsical things I've read by him.
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| Terri Unregistered User (8/23/00 11:51:22 pm) | Post
script
P.S.: This article will be out in Realms of Fantasy magazine's next issue (Sept., I think?); and also posted on the Endicott Studio web site in October.
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| Richard Registered User (8/24/00 7:43:16 am) | Re:
Post script
If it's in the December issue it'll probably be mid-October or thereabouts.
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| adlih Unregistered User (11/16/00 9:21:33 am) | french
folklore
I am so excited to find this site. Finally went through Google. com and came up here. I have been searching for information on Adrienne Segur for months. When I was a child, I would check the old Golden Book of Fairy Tales out of the library weekly. When it was republished, I snatched it up. Does anyone have any information on her. I am trying to collect all of her books and illustrations, but I am also interested in her biography. Also, any info on books and illustrations with Kay Nielsen would be appreciated. I love that style. Thanks
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