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Helen
Registered User
(12/6/00 5:12:28 pm)
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Myth, Mysticism, and Magic: The Pre-Raphaelites...
Getting back to the research that led to the happy accident of my finding this board in the first place ...
On the Endicott Studio site there's an article by Terry discussing the Pre-Raphaelites (title in header). It includes a line refering to William Morris which says "[He]... wrote ... magical tales such as Well at World's End (considered by some literary historians to be the first modern fantasy [novel])".
Dear Terry, or anyone else who might happen to know off hand ...which literary historians specifically ... and where I could find their work?
Edited by: Helen at: 12/6/00
5:12:56 pm
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Gregor9
Registered User
(12/7/00 5:42:50 am)
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Morris hunting
Helen,
If you can find a copy (used, without a doubt) of Lin Carter's overview of the grand history of fantasy literature, called IMAGINARY WORLDS, that might be a place to begin.
Carter was the editor at Ballantine Books in the late 60s & 70s who helmed the Adult Fantasy series which reprinted Morris' books as well as those of Mervyn Peake, Lord Dunsany, E.R.R. Eddison and others, and I think to add weight to the project he wrote his own introductory book on the subject. I have a copy and will make a note to see if he includes references you might use.
GF
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Helen
Registered User
(12/7/00 5:29:50 pm)
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Re: Figures that it'd be out of print ...
Have you noticed that the best resources (or fantasy, for that matter - I speak as the proud recent recipient of a copy of Gilman's Moonwise, all of nine years old, and almost impossible to find)are out of print. I've spent more time hunting for sources this semester than I have actually typing up my findings. Thank you enormously for the suggestion, however. Dunsany, Edison, and Morris are pretty much the three main authors who I want to use. My basic premise is that some of the primary changes in the mindset towards fantasy are due to the mediums used to transmit it, others due to the shifts in society itself, and that not all of them are bad for the magical mindset - hopefully concluding with a resounding "No" to the question that Zipes asked in his "Contemporary American Fairy Tale" essay, which was "Are the fairy tales in America mere commodities that compensate for the technological evolution that has narrowed the range of possibilites for developing the imagination and humane relationships in reality?", cause while Zipes did seem to end on a positive note concerning fairy tales (don't get me wrong, I love the man's work, and would probably crawl on my belly like a snake to get to study with him ... now all I need to do is learn German. Fluently.), technology comes out sounding unabashedly negative. Yet, without it, the works of these men, not excessively popular during their own times, might have been forgotten entirely. Instead, they resurfaced during the Art Nouveau revivals of the sixties and seventies - thank you, Lin Carter, may I find a copy of your work out there somewhere - and directly influenced the works of several generations of writers in a world more ready to accept their ideas. Basically, I want to show the direct influence of their attitudes towards the aqcuisition of magic (i.e., as being an individual ability related to skill rather than rank, as being directly related to both knowledge - The Charwomans Shadow - and power - The King of Elflands Daughter) on modern writers who use magic as just another skill to be learned and used as suits the personality of their individual characters, rather than being either good or bad automatically simply because of the possession of magical abilites. I've been thinking of Dean's Tam Lin, Stevermer's College of Magic's, and the ubiquitous Harry Potter books as examples of the latter.
*pant, pant, pant*
P.S. - guy's, if I talk about this too much, just tell me. I do it in person too (my first big research project that I've been able to conduct as I please) and those around me have gotten to the point that they're just starting to talk around me.
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Terri
Registered User
(12/8/00 1:29:31 am)
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Beyond the fields we know...
Helen, by all means feel free to talk about this at length -- it sounds fascinating, and I'd love to read your study when it's done. I agree with Greg that Lin Carter's Imaginary Worlds is a good book for historial info on the fantasy genre, including classic fantasy of the Morris/Dunsany ilk. It's popular rather than academic nonfiction (as are my Folkroots/Endicott Studio articles -- which, as you can see, are not exactly rigorously footnoted!), and the book betrays Carter's roots in pulp adventure fiction, yet the man is responsible (with his Sign of the Unicorn series and the help of Ian and Betty Ballantine) for weaning a whole generation of readers and future fantasy writers on the classic writers like Morris, Dunsany, Eddison, etc. I have to confess that I wasn't citing any one specific source in my comment that fantasy historians often start the "adult fantasy" genre off with Morris -- but I'll see if I can dig up some specific sources for you (perhaps Greg and Midori know others too), since it's a commonly held opinion in the field. Another book you should track down, if you don't have it already, is Fantasists on Fantasy, edited by Boyer & Zahorski (published by Avon some years ago), which contains essays by folks ranging from George Macdonald to Ursula Le Guin. And *don't miss* Kate's brilliant book, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: Women Writers Explore Their Favorite Fairy Tales" -- which is quite inspiring. I also recommend Michael Swanwick's essay "In the Tradition...," which was reprinted in The Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, Volume 8 and compares classic writers with modern writers. I'd like to comment more on the ideas in your posting, but I've got a wicked deadline today and I've got to run! But please tell us more...
Edited by: Terri at: 12/8/00
1:31:06 am
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Helen
Registered User
(12/8/00 9:01:15 am)
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Re: Eureka!!!
*scribbling furiously*
Between the authors that you list in this posting, and the Silver piece that you describe on the Transformations thread, I should actually have enough sources to support my hypothesis, I should actually be able to dig up enough material to support my hypothesis - thank you, thank you, thank you. One huge irony is that the Swanwick essay is what sent me onto the 'Net and into used bookstores back in summer, hunting down some of the fascinating works he mentioned, and maybe even what subconsciously started me off on this train of thought ... hmm, need to go back and make sure that I don't unconsciously plagerize ... nope, luckily, mine is a lot more theoretical - just close enough that I can use him for support. Joy! I would *love* to be able to get feedback from all of you on this once it's finished - especially as some of you are the ones who inspired me to go into this field in the first place ...will post more later about it, hopefully after I've sat before the computer loyally for several hours, working on GETTING IT DONE. Deadlines steeenk.
Edited by: Helen at: 12/8/00
9:02:08 am
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Gregor9
Registered User
(12/8/00 1:38:49 pm)
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M. Swanwick
Helen,
I'm going to pass your (and Terri's) comments along to Michael. He's a good friend and lives just a few minutes from me. I think he'll be delighted to learn that his essay has inspired you thus.
He's currently engaged in a dialogue with Greer Gilman over an amazing short piece she published last year in CENTURY magazine. It takes a mythographer to unravel even a bit of it.
As you mention the Potter books, you might want to look at Philip Pullman's remarkable use of magic to forge a parallel world and more to our own in his series "His Dark Materials". Well worth your time.
I think also you can make an easy case for the Dunsany/Eddison/Morris/Cabell cluster of fiction having enormous influence on Lewis and Tolkien and thus reverberating into contemporary fantasy fiction across the board. In fact, at least with regard to my own tastes, I've long suspected the best fantasy is written by people who have bothered to go back that far and discover some of these sources, and the worst is written by those who know Tolkien (if that) and nothing before him.
I will look for the Carter book around here, too. Darrell Schweitzer often has copies of the whole Ballantine list from those days, and may have a copy of the essay to sell. Will let you know what I find.
GF
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Terri
Registered User
(12/9/00 1:51:06 am)
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Re: M. Swanwick
I second your recommendation of Philip Pullman; those books are astonishing. I liked that s-t-r-a-n-g-e Greer Gilman story in Century too. Greg, any chance of getting Michael to come by this chat board and say "hi"?
| Midori
Unregistered User
(12/9/00 7:12:49 am)
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new site
I just got a reference for a new site from the University of Virginia (who have a fabulous Blake site, by the way) for a new Rossetti site. If it's anything like the Blake site it should be pretty spectacular when its all up. Here's the address:
jefferson.village.virginia.edu/rossetti
I'm heading over there to have a look myself.
| Midori
Unregistered User
(12/9/00 7:27:01 am)
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fantastic
Just a quick follow up on the Rossetti site. It's splendid! Read through the introduction for the most useful information on the site--this is the first of 4 part installments. They are still negotiating with the estate to reproduce the images but the site has an enormous amount of information and the prints that are there are gorgeous! Also, like the Blake site, the prints can be enlarged to be able to really see the lovely details. Eventually the full body of DGR works should be available on this site along with links to essay, articles, and bibliographical information. For Pre Raphaelite fans this is a great site. Now if they only had one for Christina--but who knows that may be coming. U.of V. is doing some amazing work.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(12/10/00 7:52:54 am)
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M. Swanwick
Terri,
I'll ask Michael if he'd care to weigh in. He's in the middle of a large research project on Hope Mirlees at the moment (speaking of obscure fantasists), but he might.
As for Greer's piece, she sent him (and me, though him) an essay deconstructing "Jack Daw's Pack", and the more I read it the more amazed I was at how much she had crafted each sentence, embedding layer upon layer of meaning and reference. This is her fantasy universe and it's as oblique and rich as Gene Wolfe's "New Sun".
Greg
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Helen
Registered User
(12/14/00 3:58:27 pm)
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The adrenalin high is starting to wear off ...
I just finished working on my research project yesterday - and while I am relieved to be able to relax a little, I am also finding that I miss it. So, I thought that I might post a brief description of it, to see if I could get any constructive feedback from y'all. Basically, I'm working on the question of how the acquisition of magical abilities throughout various legends and myths, up until and including current fantasy stories, reflect the human attitudes towards knowledge as a form of power. I think that it's possible to see the reflections of cultural beliefs reflected through the medium of magic, frequently more clearly than if the authors had troubled to spell out the precise nature of their views. For example, the Greek’s hierarchical system of social organization, as well as their pervasive belief in unalterable destiny, can be seen in the qualities of the students accepted by the teacher Chiron and also in his eventual demise - sacrificing himself to free the bringer of knowledge, Prometheus, from his bonds.
Likewise, the medieval attitude towards knowledge serves to illuminate their attitudes towards the changes beginning to overtake their world, as can be seen in Malory’s epic Le Morte D’Arthur, which chronicles not only Arthur’s mythic Camelot, but also the beginning of the cultural
shift which was to change the medieval way of life. This seems, to me, to be exemplified by the animosity between Merlin, the traditional magician (i.e.,possessing unknown ancestry, a mysterious past, and abilities granted by some
greater Power) and Morgan Le Fay, who acts as a kind of precusor of the modern age (a human *woman* who acquires her magic through education rather than heritage or divine patronage). She was said to have been trained in a nunnery, among the modern centers of learning, which were frequently associated with heterodox teachings and occasionally vilified as dens of iniquity. Due to the source of her magic, her knowledge, she was automatically suspect.
The dichotomy between the two opposing forces of tradition and modernization fades with the passing of time, as can be seen in modern works dealing with similar issues. In modern fantasy, the acquisition of magic, like as not, occurs in an accepted social setting - a school. The examples that I'm using include Dean's Tam Lin, Stevermer's College of Magics, and the ubiquitous Harry Potter books. However, these school are be set in the past, though imagined by modern authors, or else removed from the
everyday world in some other manner, or the main character, though typical of his or her imaginary world generally, will still be singled out through heritage or destiny - myriad equivocations indicating a continuing hesitancy to fully embrace the repercussions of magic, power, knowledge, which is equally available to all. In a way, that hesitancy seems akin to the question of God in theology - in both cases, an inability to satisfactorily explain misfortune or failure in a world of enhanced possibilites. It reminds me of that Arthur C. Clarke quote about sufficently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic - if our science can't cure all the worlds ill's, authors don't want to take the easy way out by saying that magic *could*.
*ahhh*...Writing it all out gave me my fix for the evening.
Seriously, though, I'd appreciate any feedback ... thanks, guys.
Edited by: Helen at: 12/14/00
4:00:45 pm
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Gregor9
Registered User
(12/15/00 12:08:00 pm)
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College knowledge
Helen,
The elements you mention about acquisition of magic in school settings is also on stage in Philip Pullman's _The Golden Compass_, where his young heroine lives as a kind of stowaway in an alternate-world Oxford. Her uncle is a Lord (god, perhaps?), her seeming benefactress a sinister opposing force, an operative for "the Church" (the Mother church?), which embodies the desire to destroy change, to limit, control, and keep arcane knowledge for themselves. They are willing to sacrifice anyone or anything to have it and to stop anyone else from having it, too. He's worked out a rich supernatural system, and one which allows him to make a number of sharp attacks upon religion in our own universe, about the advisability or foolhardiness of keeping most everyone in the dark, about a great many things.
As you say in referring to the "fading dichotomy", the distinctions between the good and evil--the modernizing uncle and tradition- maintaining female--in the book are clear at first, but as the story progresses, the distinction itself becomes suspect, till by the end, I'm not sure how much difference there is; they become two different but equally corrupt forces. It's really wonderfully subversive fiction.
With his alternate system of sciences, everything is effectively magic. Beautiful evocative magic, and precisely what Clarke was talking about.
Greg
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Terri
Registered User
(12/16/00 2:23:42 am)
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Pre-Raphaelite inspired photographs
If anyone reading this board is located in London, or planning to be there anytime soon, there's a terrific exhibition of photographs based on Pre-Raphaelite art at the White Cube gallery at the moment. Tom Hunter is a young photographer who has taken pictures of punks, travellers, homeless young people, etc., posed in scenes that echo famous Pre-Raphaelite paintings. It's interesting and gorgeous work.
The show is called "Life and Death in Hackney," at White Cube Gallery, 44 Duke Street, St. James, London SW1. I don't know how long it's on for, but anyone interested can phone the gallery: 020-7930-5373.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(12/18/00 9:01:19 am)
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Returning to the Carter book
Helen,
I checked with Darrell Schweitzer and am sorry to say that he does not have a copy of IMAGINARY WORlDS. He does currently have some of the William Morris novels for sale, if those are of interest. You may have to use someone like Alibris to track down the Carter overview.
Greg
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Helen
Registered User
(12/18/00 3:03:15 pm)
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Deeply appreciated ...
Dear Gregor (and everyone else as well):
I'm finishing up a veery tough semester (which is why I've been lurking more than I've been posting) but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your putting your time and attention into checking on this stuff for me you. You guys are wonderful. Will *definitely* check with Darrell Schweitzer (once I figure out who he is ... online book seller?) about the Morris novels, as only some of them have been reprinted, and I want copies of them ALL. Thanks,
Helen
PS - I read your Pullman post, and you've got a point - I'm just so ambivalant about his work as of the last novel that I haven't been able to think of a coherent response. Will post when my brain starts working again ... promise.
| Catja
Unregistered User
(12/21/00 12:59:13 pm)
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His Dark Materials
I too just finished the Pullman trilogy, and my mind is completely blown. I read _The Amber Spyglass_ in one sitting, right after the Fed-Ex guy delivered it into my hot little hands. That was two days ago, and I'm still reeling.
Helen, congratulations on finishing your project (which sounds amazing), and enjoy your well-deserved rest!
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Gregor9
Registered User
(12/22/00 6:16:08 am)
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Darrell Schweitzer
Helen,
I'll send you the information on him as soon as I get the chance. It's in one place and I'm in another at the moment. I think I still have his latest catalog, too, in which case I can tell you what he has for sale at the moment.
GF
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