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avalondeb
Registered User
(5/26/07 7:10 pm)


The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
I just got back from seeing the new Pirates movies. I had a discussion on the way home about the ending.





I was the only person who felt that the curse was broken. To me it was a retelling/twist on the ballad of Tam Lin. Here are the similarities:

- Human taken into servitude to Faerie
- Curse can only be broken by the faithfulness/love of their lover
- The woman who breaks the curse has a child/is pregnant
- Human taken into Faerie doesn't age, can only appear on earth every few years/during specific time

Did anyone else have similiar thoughts about the ending?
Can anyone think of other tales or myths where a human pulled into Faerie is rescued?

TIA

Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(5/28/07 9:38 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Nah, I didn't see any indication that the curse was broken--you're talking about Will being condemned to take Davy Jones's place, right? It had been ten years, so it was just time for his next visit, though seeing as Elizabeth is now Captain Swann the Singaporean Pirate Queen, I don't see why they couldn't have been having lots of pirate sex at sea.

I don't see too many parallels with Tam Lin, I'm afraid. Will took on the role voluntarily, knowing what his options were, and we're never told any terms under which the captain of the Flying Dutchman is absolved of his duties, except, of course, being stabbed through the heart.

agathajun
Registered User
(5/29/07 2:23 am)


pirates
As someone in a long-term, long-distance relationship, lots of pirate sex at sea came to mind too. ;) Wasn't Davy Jones standing in a bucket on the beach for parley? Voila. Lots of scope for invention.

I'm not sure that Will chose it. Jack made him stab the heart just as he died so that he could come back to life, even though Jack really wanted the job (well, that's how I read it).

Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(5/29/07 8:57 am)


Re: pirates
I had the impression that when push came to shove, Jack realized that he didn't really want the job, which was why he couldn't bring himself to stab the heart even when Jones called his bluff and ran Will through (which I applaud), and he was left holding the heart without any leverage. Will, on the other hand, was dying, so he didn't really have anything to lose, so what the hell, and then he can free his dad.

We don't see the heart-stabbing scene though, so I guess it's open to conjecture.

LostWendy
Registered User
(5/31/07 12:10 pm)


Re: pirates
Actually, according to one of the writers, Terry Rossio, the curse was broken but that part of the explanation was unfortunately cut in editing. You can read about it here: www.wordplayer.com/forums...read=98135

:)

Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(5/31/07 3:25 pm)


Re: pirates
Well, in that case, the ending of the movie is much, much lamer than I had thought. I though that Will was actually, you know, sacrificing something. And Elizabeth is expected to go without sex for ten years? I prefer the non-curse-breaking ending. Far more interesting.

This all leaves open the question, however, of whether or not that rule is canon, given that the scene explaining it was edited out of both movies. In what we've been shown, it never happened. I suppose they could do a retcon in the 4th movie, but I would consider it to be particularly sloppy writing. Not that that's ever stopped Hollywood before.

Troy Patterson
Registered User
(6/4/07 10:32 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Well, not telling all is a style of screen writing. It appears it is becoming increasingly popular.

If the intent is to retain some mysteries for subsequent sequels, judging from the comments, it sounds as though it works.

Withholding, or not giving all the answers is alot like life. When something happens that I do not understand, there is no one there to explain it to me, mostly because no one else understands either. Kind of annoying isn t it? It is a sad commentary on our society I d say.

By withholding answers, the writer(s) compel the viewer to think or ponder why. Whether you like it or not, you ll have to thank those annoying writers for ...

:rollin

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

AliceCEB
Registered User
(6/5/07 7:39 am)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Actually, our family has already figured out the sequel: Jack goes off to find the fountain of youth in Florida, finds it and becomes a permanent fixture in an unnamed amusement park for the rest of eternity. :D

Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(6/5/07 8:12 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
You're giving screenwriters an awful lot of credit, Troy! I'm still gonna go with the sloppy writing diagnosis.

Monika
Registered User
(6/12/07 1:47 am)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
I've just seen this. It seems to me that there could be plenty of ways to get around the ten-year rule, but I was more concerned about the fact that Will is now immortal, while Elizabeth will grow old and die (oh, that old chestnut).

Also - and clearly this is just me - but I kept thinking, why Calypso (Greek), as opposed to, say, Yemaya (Yoruba/Vodou)?

Troy Patterson
Registered User
(6/13/07 5:33 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
I'll admit, for my tastes, I thought the movie was a little lacking in specificity in some areas. The first movie was the best, in my opinion. It left me with a sense of validation of the non-conformist, rebel side of my personality. We have been so "PC" for so long, I just want to puke on some disabled person! Alright, not really. I was just going for the laugh.

Any way, that was what I liked about it. Not to hi-jack the thread, but as a (want to be) writer I'd be interested to know what others took away from it.

This third "Pirates" was alright. Worth the price, but not one to write home about because it didn't do anything for me.

I didn't like the vagueness of the rules regarding the 10 year thing because I began thinking about ways around it also. But, then I had to think, would the rules allow that or not, I don't know since it wasn't declared - I hate that! I need to be able to plan my own escape route in the event I land in that position. I suspended my disbelief!

And yes, there are a lot of poorly written movies out there. For every okay produced script, there is at least one person with money and position to make it who thought it was great. Conversely, there is a relatively small number of people with exceptional insight, money and / or position to get produce those handful of great scripts. You can guess which camp I want to be in.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Edited by: Troy Patterson at: 6/13/07 5:38 pm
MaryCatelli
Registered User
(7/15/07 11:24 am)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Ten years -- well, a lot of fairy tale heroines have to go through long ordeals to free the hero. Seven is rather more typical, but

"Seven long years I served for thee,
The glassy hill I clomb for thee,
Thy bloody clothes I wrang for thee;
And wilt thou not waken and turn to me?"

MaryCatelli
Registered User
(7/16/07 5:19 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
The clearest allusion I found in the movie was to the Aeneid, in Barbossa's comments about the land of the dead.

Or as Virgil put it:
"Easy is the descent to hell; the door of dark Dis stands open day and night. But to retrace your steps and come out to the air above, that is work, that is labor!"

Van45us
Registered User
(7/16/07 9:47 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
I was left completely (pardon the pun) at sea about the nature of the curse. If the cursed pirates sloughed off their sea creature-selves and went back to resembling humans, then how was the curse still in play? Why did Will have to spend 10 years at sea? If they'd remained transformed, I would have got it, but the fact they didn't was confusing, to me, anyway.

Did anyone stay to the end of the credits and see the finish of the Will/Elizabeth story arc? ;)

MaryCatelli
Registered User
(7/17/07 5:49 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Oh yes I stayed to the end and so did most of the people in the theater. (In fact, I noticed "Young Will Turner" in the credits and was pondering because of course there was a "Young Will Turner" credit in Curse of the Black Pearl.)

I don't approve of where they positioned it. Little fillips at the end of the credits are fine, but to put a scene so important to the movie there is -- not cool.

Edited by: MaryCatelli at: 7/17/07 5:50 pm
MaryCatelli
Registered User
(7/17/07 6:00 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
On the curse --

I suspect they didn't have the nature of the curse entirely straight. They didn't have the ship needing to have a captain in the second movie. But I think I got the gist of it.

1. Davey Jones made a deal with Calypso, whereby she would wait for him and he would send souls to the next world. (A kind of sea psychopomp.) This made him the captain, which required the ten years at sea.

2. She failed him, very predictably, I fear.

3. He betrayed her to the pirates. (This is where the curse is kinda fuzzy: did he chop out his heart at this point and not at the beginning? Or perhaps this was the point at which he could not stand to be in the same room as the heart any more.)

4. He became the cruel soul we saw at beginning of Dead Man's Chest.

5. 2, or 3, or 4, caused him to transformed, and to cause his ship to be transformed.

6. Will, not having been betrayed, not having betrayed, or not having corrupted his role as the psychopomp, does not himself get transformed, and because the ship is now his, it and the crew are no longer transformed. Since he's just fine at the real end, presumably this will last as long as he doesn't do whatever Davey Jones did that produced the transformation.

(Note that Jones hates to even be around the chest, but Will himself carries the chest to Elizabeth to confide it to her.)

Edited by: MaryCatelli at: 7/17/07 8:47 pm
Van45us
Registered User
(7/18/07 9:40 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Okay, I think I may have a grasp on it now. I'm still wondering what exactly Will did during those 10 years. Good things? bad things? Nothing? ;)

Thanks, Mary - appreciate the help. BTW, I was the ONLY one left in the theater for the tag! LOL! After Harry Potter and Pirates, I just expect these tags now, and wait for them. No one else there did. I agree 100% with you - it was far too important a part of the film to include in such a cavalier way. I'm surprised they did that.

Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(7/18/07 9:59 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
OK, here's the deal with Jones's transformation:

He stopped ferrying souls to the afterlife and started sailing around wreaking havoc instead. It's unclear whether he fell down on the job before Calypso let him down of afterwards, but whichever it was, he and the crew and the ship began to lose their humanity. Since Will kept on ferrying souls, he didn't change, so that's what he did for those 10 years.

Van45us
Registered User
(7/18/07 10:03 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Aha! Thanks for that as well! Nice to think Will wasn't sailing around butchering folks....somehow I figured he wasn't.

MaryCatelli
Registered User
(7/19/07 6:03 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Well, there were ending tags for the last two movies. I was warned for them but just kinda figured it was best for this one.

Van45us
Registered User
(7/19/07 9:43 pm)


Re: The Latest Pirates of the Caribbean? (spoilers)
Exactly. And this time around Harry Potter didn't have one. 20 minutes of credits for nothing.... ;)

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